I'm working on a Fighter that will hold the front line by trip spamming, often (eventually permanently) enlarged. I figured that was better than Stand Still (I'm assuming when it says you can make a trip in place of an attack that includes AoO). Not sure if I want to go sword & board or 2 handed.
20 point buy
Core & APG only
What would you reccomend as far as what feats when, equipment, and what skills to take? I have read RogueEidolon's guide to fighters, but I'm still a little confused.
I would consider going with the polearm master then. You can gain all the advantages of using a two-handed reach weapon but also shorten the grip so that you can continue to threaten. Flexible flanker and sweeping fend will help you out as well. Steadfast pike will be useful against attacks of opportunity. You'll obviously want the trip feat tree. Consider also going for Tripping Strike. Ki throw and Improved Ki Throw require improved unarmed strike but they don't say the feat only applies to unarmed strikes. Consider the feat Over and Under as well. You are going to want to push your Strength as high as you can.
I agree with people above. I'd go with the combat expertise -- > greater trip trip line, and the dodge - mobility -- > whirlwind* and combat patrol line ( a lot of prerequisite feats you'd take are prerequisite for more than one feat), as well as combat reflexes.
The Polearm master class features will help you to maximize te purpose of your PC - mainly melee control.
Guisarme. Weapon focus and GWF will improve your trip attempts too.
Take power attack anyway because you will anyway need to deal damage and Guisarme is 2H.
*whirlwind is less optimal, but I find it fun with lunge and polearms.
@Bob- I'm not so sure about crit feats without a high crit range weapon (guisarme = only reach + trip weapon and has a x3 crit). Ki throw specifically says in the first sentence of the benefits paragraph that it only works with unarmed trips. I can't find the Over and Under feat anywhere in the Core Rules or APG, so I won't be able to use it.
@james- Thanks, it's perfect for this build.
@Kaiyanwang- Are you sure Weapon Focus and Greater apply to trips? RAW only mentions attack rolls, not combat maneuvers.
@Bob and Kaiyanwang- Lets try and put your suggestions into a sample build:
Human Fighter (Polearm Master)
Str 17 (7 pts +2 racial) <- this gets all increases
Dex 14 (5 pts)
Con 14 (5 pts)
Int 13 (3 pts)
Wis 12 (2 pts)
Cha 8 (-2 pts)
Alt Racial Trait: Heart of the Wilderness (the urban jungle)
Traits: Eyes and Ears of the City, Indomitable Faith (yay roleplaying opportunities!)
Feats (Assuming Weapon Focus doesn't add to CMB):
1- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes
2- Power Attack
3- Dodge
4- Mobility
5- Combat Patrol
6- Greater Trip
7- Iron Will (we need this in here somewhere)
8- Spring Attack
9- Whirlwind Attack
10- Lunge
11- Improved Iron Will (why not)
12+ ???
Skills: Max out Perception and Survival, use remaining for splashes.
Primary Weapon: Guisarme
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@Kaiyanwang- Are you sure Weapon Focus and Greater apply to trips? RAW only mentions attack rolls, not combat maneuvers.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, and gain all the relevant bonuses:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver ... Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Really no way to interpret that other than to allow weapon training and Weapon Focus, et al, to apply to maneuver checks made with the relevant weapon.
What shisumo said. In fact, a lot of people saying that combat maneuvers land rarely... completely ignore this.
Meaning no offense toward YOU, or people in this thread: very, very laughable.
BTW, remember it when you charge, or if you have a bard in your party.
@Darigaaz: Love it. for the prosecution, what about the Ditruptive Spellbreaker Teleport tactician line?
Otherwise, go nuts with maneuver feats, or take dazing/stunning assault.
Well, it's a fighter. By level 20 you can fullfill ALL things we suggested ;)
@shisumo- Thanks so much! I had NO idea that paragraph was in there.
@kaiyanwang- This build is too feat hungry for the Disruptive line, I'd also want Step Up & Following Step to go with that. I find the ability to mimic a fireball with Lunge + Whirlwind a lot of fun too. But, I think I'm gonna have to delay that line for Weapon Focus & greater. *sobs* So now it looks like:
8- Weapon Focus
9- Greater Weapon Focus
10- Spring Attack
11- Whirlwind Attack
12- Lunge
13- Weapon Specialization
14- Greater Weapon Specialization
15- Improved Iron Will
Anyone want to suggest feats for 16-20? I think it's a little too late for spell disruption at this point.
I reread the feats for ki throw and I misread it the first time. My bad.
That being said, you may want to consider the reposition feats as well. Combining them with trips, lunge, whirlwind, stand still, and combat patrol, you will have a very strong battlefield controlling fighter.
I'll see what I can throw together later. It's kinda late for me tonight.
I'd do the following:
Race: Human, Heart of the Wilderness alt-class feature.
Fighter: Polearm Master archetype.
STR: 15 [7], DEX: 15+2 [7], CON 12 [2], INT 13 [3], WIS 14 [5], CHA 7 [-4]
Traits: Threatening Defender, Freed Slave [Will]
Favored class bonus goes into hit points through level 4, then even numbered levels, and into +1 to CMD to defend against Sunder and one other maneuver of your choice on odd numbered levels.
Feats:
1: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip. Base AC 19; CMB 1+2+4=+7. ATK: +3, 2d4+3 Dmg.
2: Dodge. Base AC 20. CMB +8, ATK: +4, 2d4+3 Dmg.
3: Mobility. Base AC 21 (MW Breastplate), AC 25 vs. AoAs. CMB +9, ATK: +5, 2d4+3 Dmg.
4: Combat Patrol, +1 DEX. Base AC 23. CMB +9, ATK +5, 2d4+3 Dmg.
5: Iron Will, +2 STR Item likely. CMB +12, ATK +7, 2d4+5
6: Greater Trip, CMB +15/+10(!), ATK +8/+3, 2d4+5
7: Weapon Focus [Guisarm] CMB +17/+12, ATK +10/+5, 2d4+5
8: Greater Weapon Focus [Guisarm] Base AC 25 [Guisarm], +1 STR (16 base), +2 STR/DEX item likely. (18 STR, 20 DEX), CMB +19/+14, ATK +12/+7, 2d4+8
9: Lunge CMB +21/+16, +13/+8, 2d4+8
10: Whirlwind Attack [Guisarm] CMB +22 x 48(!) threatened squares. ATK +14/+9
11: Shield Focus Base AC 26 with buckler. CMB +22, ATK +14/+9/+4
12: Greater Shield Focus. Base AC 28 with buckler and Comb. Exp. CMB +22. +1 INT (12 skill points!) ATK: +14/+9/+4
This assumes (aside from the stat boosting items) that all armor and weapons are mundane - this is your BASE AC with a mundane breastplate and your base CMB.
Your damage is mediocre; just about any dedicated damage causing build will out damage you.
This build presumes the following:
1) Nobody is getting close to you without running the risk of getting thrown on their butts. By 4th level, you'll have 5 AOAs. By 8th, you'll have 6.
2) At 1st level, against a high STR/DEX raging barbarian built like a PC, you've got about a 50/50 chance of dropping him with the trip. Since your CMB goes up faster than anyone's CMD, and CMD ignores armor and shield bonuses, this is going to be obnoxious. A rough calc indicates that you're at 75% trip chances versus full martial classes by 3rd level.
3) You're going to be hard to hit, assuming a masterwork breastplate by 3rd level. Even without armor training, you'll be at AC 10+6+3+1+1=21 before buffs at 3rd level. (Note that by 4th level, having your size increased by Enlarge Person will still net you an AC of 20)
4) As a consequence of 1 and 3, hit points are less important to you. Even more so, with the +5 bonus to stabilization rolls, and the +1/2 character level to where your "I die" threshold are from Heart of the Wilderness, nearly all of the benefits of superlative CON are gone.
@shisumo- Thanks so much! I had NO idea that paragraph was in there.
@kaiyanwang- This build is too feat hungry for the Disruptive line, I'd also want Step Up & Following Step to go with that. I find the ability to mimic a fireball with Lunge + Whirlwind a lot of fun too. But, I think I'm gonna have to delay that line for Weapon Focus & greater. *sobs* So now it looks like:
8- Weapon Focus
9- Greater Weapon Focus
10- Spring Attack
11- Whirlwind Attack
12- Lunge
13- Weapon Specialization
14- Greater Weapon Specialization
15- Improved Iron WillAnyone want to suggest feats for 16-20? I think it's a little too late for spell disruption at this point.
Do you really need the specialization feats? The reason I ask is because you are working more on battlefield control instead of tons of damage. Together they add only 4 points of damage. It adds up for sure but do they help you achieve the build you want? Can you make up that damage with extra attacks? For example, if you went with the Reposition feats, not only can you place the enemy where you want them, but that movement can provoke attacks of opportunity. Moving someone through the rogue's threatened area for some sneak attack damage is more than the 4 points you would be doing with the other two feats. Moving someone off a cliff for 1d6 falling damage is worth more than the 4 damage from the two feats.
I advocathe the first specialization because is needed for GWF, which improves trip attempts.
For the GWS.. yeah, I think that Bob_Loblaw is perfectly right.
EDIT: AHAHAHAHA nevermind. Had in mind old edition prerequisites :P
Lunge, you'll want lunge with whirlwind attack. Clobbering more people is always better.
Also, isn't there a tripping strike or something somewhere?
Consider for back up the pushing assault feat too (now not only do they have to get up -- they got to move back past you as well) and maybe gang up (since you'll have such a large reach if two of your allies are threatening you are flanking) also you have combat expertise for the improved trip so this goes right along with that.
Enforcer might be a nice debuff -- you'll want a merciful weapon for it but by hitting you can demoralize your foes... and if you hit a bunch of foes...
Shield of swings might be good for you too -- after all if you aren't dealing damage halving your damage is a great deal for +4 to AC and CMD.
Stunning Assault is another nice high level feat -- something that you'll probably find useful for when you have to hit them.
The biggest problem with relying solely on trip is the fact that you can't trip flying creatures, and so many others have a lot of bonuses specifically against tripping.
For your favored class bonus if you go human I suggest the CMD boosting choice to work against grappling and sundering (which helps all your equipment).
I guess I didn't make it clear in the OP, but tripping isn't the only thing this guy'll be doing. I'm thinking more along the lines of a hard-hitter that uses tripping AOOs to make sure no-one gets to the squishies. Also, we're definitely getting to 12, but just how much farther is unknown. So, I pretty much need to front-load the primary concepts, and can pick up either Lunge + Whirlwind OR Repositioning, but probably not both.
@AdAstra - Good reccomendations on ability scores. Point 4 won't work because even with the tripping, I'm the guy in front and I WILL be soaking up the most damage, even with the good/best AC.
@Abraham - Like I posted earlier, Tripping Strike doesn't work so well with a weapon that only crits on a 20 (it allows you to trip for free after a succesful crit). Pushing/Dazing/Stunning Assaults would be good if I wasn't trying to do damage.
So for now I'll build it like:
Human Fighter (Polearm Master)
Alt Racial Trait: Heart of the Wilderness
Favored Class Bonus: 1HP at every level
Str 15(7 pts), Dex 17(7pts+2racial), Con 12(2pts), Int 13(3pts), Wis 14(5pts), Cha 7(-4pts)
Lv4: +1 Dex; Lv 8,12,16,20: +1 Str
Traits: Eyes and Ears of the City (+1 Perception, Perception is a class skill), Indomitable Faith (+1 Will saves)
Skills: Max out Perception and Survival, put 1 rank into other class skills.
Feats:
1: Combat Expertise (will NEVER be activated), Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes
2: Power Attack
3: Iron Will
4: Weapon Focus
5: Dodge
6: Greater Trip
7: Lunge
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Mobility
10: Spring Attack
11: Whirlwind Attack
12-18 In no particular order:
Weapon Specialization & Greater
Shield Focus & Greater (a -1 to hit is a reasonable price to pay this late for a [3+enhancement] AC bump)
Improved Iron Will
Quick Draw (I'll need a bow for a secondary weapon against fliers)
I will be shocked if the camapign reaches 18th. Thanks for all the advice.
Yeah I was thinking the feat did like the other assault feats -- they keep tripping me up that way that there isn't a tripping assault (pun intended).
I would suggest the pushing/dazing/stunning feats for setting up your foes -- once they are stunned or pushed you can hit them again... and again easier. Basically you would debuff before you kill... and it would be really useful to use with whirlwind attack (since all attacks would be at your best bonus to start with).
However I do understand the reasoning behind what you are saying as well.
One thing: as james maissen suggested before, consider Combat Patrol, too.