So I was comparing Rage with the alternate ability, Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana and I'm not so sure it's balanced.
Rage = +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will, -2 AC
Whirling Frenzy = +4 Str, +2 AC, +2 Ref, Can make an extra attack at his highest BAB but all attacks that round are at -2.
At first level a Barbarian with 18str, rage and a greatsword would do 1d12+9 damage with a +7 to attack.
At first level a Barbarian with 18str, whirling frenzy and a greatsword could do that OR he could get two attacks at 1d12+9 with a +5 to attack.
Slightly less chance to hit but the potential to do twice as much damage.
Does this penalty to attack seem balanced with the damage potential to you? Or does this alternative to rage need some tweaking in order to be balanced?
At level 10 this becomes:
1d12+9/1d12+9 at +16/+11
vs.
1d12+9/1d12+9/1d12+9 at +14/+14/+9
EDIT: What if the extra attack was limited to one-handed weapons?
So I was comparing Rage with the alternate ability, Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana and I'm not so sure it's balanced.
Rage = +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will, -2 AC
Whirling Frenzy = +4 Str, +2 AC, +2 Ref, Can make an extra attack at his highest BAB but all attacks that round are at -2.
At first level a Barbarian with 18str, rage and a greatsword would do 1d12+9 damage with a +7 to attack.
At first level a Barbarian with 18str, whirling frenzy and a greatsword could do that OR he could get two attacks at 1d12+9 with a +5 to attack.
Slightly less chance to hit but the potential to do twice as much damage.
Does this penalty to attack seem balanced with the damage potential to you? Or does this alternative to rage need some tweaking in order to be balanced?
At level 10 this becomes:
1d12+9/1d12+9 at +16/+11
vs.
1d12+9/1d12+9/1d12+9 at +14/+14/+9EDIT: What if the extra attack was limited to one-handed weapons?
You should compare the rest of it as well:
Remember Duration is not improved with Whirling Frenzy (Rage improves Duration due to +4 Con).No Will save bonus (the save needed for melee)
You should compare the rest of it as well:
Remember Duration is not improved with Whirling Frenzy (Rage improves Duration due to +4 Con).
No Will save bonus (the save needed for melee)
The +2 Ref replaces the +2 Will save. I think it's a fair trade mechanically considering it's one of the weak saves of the class.
Barbarians do not get extra duration from the con bonus:
...temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bears endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day...
also, the higher you get, the much greater likelyhood of effects like haste through spell or item which are wasted on the whirling frenzy variant.
also, the higher you get, the much greater likelyhood of effects like haste through spell or item which are wasted on the whirling frenzy variant.
I just read both the Speed and Haste entries and it seems to me that they are intended to not work with other Haste effects. Whirling frenzy is not granting a haste effect.
The attack granted causes all attacks for the round to be at -2 and it's an EX ability not a SP or SU so it's not magical.The way I read it, haste or speed would still work with Whirling Frenzy. I admit that it is probably imbalanced to allow them to work together but as written I think they would work.
One of my players has been using Whirling Frenzy for a year and a half now and let me tell you..... it's powerful. Losing 2 HP per level vs. gaining an extra attack (which does stack with haste, et al).... At 13th level, he's missing out on 26 HP, which is nothing to sneeze at, but really, that's only one good hit from a decent foe at that level. Instead he frenzies and is hasted at least half the time, so he makes four attacks with his double sword. Four power attacks... with a Str of 25 or so. He tears down the enemies I through at him on a regular basis.
Is it balanced? Maybe, maybe not. It works for my campaign, it works for his character (concept and mechanics) and we're all having a good time. I'd lean toward the overpowered opinion if I had to chose, but it's not detracting anything, so it stays.
If I could start over, though, I'd keep the AC penalty from RAW rage. It just makes more sence and it does mitigate some of the power of frenzy.
FYI: 3.5 Unearthed Arcana material isn´t remotely ´balanced´ in general
(have you compared the Barbarian Totems there?)
But I don´t think WF is necessarily TOO powerful unless a player is combining with alot of other stuff to pull off a super-optimized type of build. The main thing everyone is ignoring is that Whirling Frenzy grants an extra attack WHEN FULL ATTACKING. So Whirling Frenzy just strongly highlights that you need to be running NPCs/Monsters to tactically avoid situations where they can be Full Attacked, JUST AS PLAYERS DO (if they´re smart). Every round the WF Barbarian isn´t Full Attacking, he isn´t getting that much benefit from the class variant.
And the -2 to hit definitely makes lower iteratives much less likely to hit. That´s kind of the problem with WF, that you get it at 1st level while the things it balances against are at higher levels... While I don´t think HAVING an extra attack ability somehow is SO over-powered, placing it at 1st level is very problematic, number 1 because it´s prime dip material. (though given Rage Powers, most will probably dip for 2-4 levels). Compare it to the APG Barbarian stuff, which definitely has equivalently powerful abilities, but always puts them at a high class level and/or with other pre-requisites...
Also, the loss of Will Save bonus IS signifigant: most REF Saves are just HP damage, which the Barbarian has a large pool of to begin with, while WILL Saves are often of the ´Save or Suck´ type. REFLEX is also DEX based, which is an ability which has many other combat usages for a Barbarian (Init, AC/CMD, Ranged, Combat Reflexes, Tumbling, Ride) so they are certainly going to want at least a positive modifier there, while WIS basically only affects Perception besides WILL Saves (so getting an extra bonus here means WIS is much more dumpable for many Barbs, esp. Dwarves with bonuses vs. magic).
Given that PRPG offers standard ways to get extra attacks (Animal Fury), I think it´s quite reasonable to say that 3.5 Whirling Frenzy is no longer needed/allowed in your games.
If you really want to allow it, I would consider balancing the ability by introducing a minimum DEX score of 15 (meaning lower STR in point buy), or even shifting the Rage STR bonus to be a DEX bonus instead, both of which seem appropriate to the flavor. I would also specify that the extra attack can never crit, which drops the ´peak´ somewhat and also doesn´t contribute towards Crit-trigger effects (like Stunning Crit).
The key to any damage comparison is going to be that -2 to hit.
+16/+11, +14/+14/+9.
Against a foe with AC 25, that's a 60/35 = 95% chance to hit, vs a 50/50/25% chance to hit, or 125%.
Clearly, on a full attack the whirling frenzy is going to be better.
When we take it up to AC 30, it's 35/10% vs 25/25/5%...still better IF you get the full attack off.
BUt what happens if you don't get the full attack? Then whirling frenzy effectively gives you a +2 AC and reflex bonus, +4 str...and -2 to hit.
The normal rager works at full capacity.
It basically becomes a tradeoff between more effectiveness on a standard attack vs a full attack, and the ability to take a hit vs the ability to hopefully dodge it.
If you allow Pounce/Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy is definitely the way to go.
==Aelryinth
And the -2 to hit definitely makes lower iteratives much less likely to hit. That´s kind of the problem with WF, that you get it at 1st level while the things it balances against are at higher levels... While I don´t think HAVING an extra attack ability somehow is SO over-powered, placing it at 1st level is very problematic, number 1 because it´s prime dip material. (though given Rage Powers, most will probably dip for 2-4 levels). Compare it to the APG Barbarian stuff, which definitely has equivalently powerful abilities, but always puts them at a high class level and/or with other pre-requisites...
So you're saying that, at low levels, WF is not as good as Rage because you're not going to get much use out of the extra attack? However, players at higher levels would want to dip for 1 level of Barb to get the extra attack. So if we moved the extra attack to not be gained until the Barb is 4th level it really wouldn't hurt him at low levels and it would prevent dipping for the extra attack.
BUt what happens if you don't get the full attack? Then whirling frenzy effectively gives you a +2 AC and reflex bonus, +4 str...and -2 to hit.
Frenzy would only give the -2 if they were doing a full attack. As a standard action (one attack) he would attack as normal so would have the same bonuses to attack as the Rager plus he would get +2 to AC.
So to break it down from what you all have said:
+2 Will > +2 Ref
-2 AC +4 Con < +2 AC (or is that a pretty well balanced trade?)
+4 Str = +4 Str
Rage Standard Attack = Frenzy Standard Attack
Rage Full Attack =< Frenzy Full Attack (Because the Frenzy Barb could choose to not take the extra attack and not incur the -2 to all attacks)
So looking at the two side-by-side like that it doesn't look overtly more powerful.
Then you mentioned the ability to add Pounce. How does a PC get Pounce? I've seen this mentioned before on the boards but I've never read a rule that would allow a PC to get Pounce (unless they were a were-tiger or something like that).
You should compare the rest of it as well:
Remember Duration is not improved with Whirling Frenzy (Rage improves Duration due to +4 Con).
No Will save bonus (the save needed for melee)The +2 Ref replaces the +2 Will save. I think it's a fair trade mechanically considering it's one of the weak saves of the class.
Barbarians do not get extra duration from the con bonus:
...temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bears endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day...
But remember it came from 3.0/3.5 when the Con bonus increased the duration. So Rage got weaker in Pathfinder, so it seems a unfair comparison to compare a nerfed Rage (Pathfinder Rage) vs a unnerfed version (whirling Frenzy).
While the Barb got improves: Rage powers, their rage got weaker.
You should compare the rest of it as well:
Remember Duration is not improved with Whirling Frenzy (Rage improves Duration due to +4 Con).
No Will save bonus (the save needed for melee)The +2 Ref replaces the +2 Will save. I think it's a fair trade mechanically considering it's one of the weak saves of the class.
Barbarians do not get extra duration from the con bonus:
...temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bears endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day...But remember it came from 3.0/3.5 when the Con bonus increased the duration. So Rage got weaker in Pathfinder, so it seems a unfair comparison to compare a nerfed Rage (Pathfinder Rage) vs a unnerfed version (whirling Frenzy).
While the Barb got improves: Rage powers, their rage got weaker.
WF would have only had a 2 round shorter duration. In 3.5 that could be a fairly significant loss at low levels. In Pathfinder I'm not sure what the equivalent would be. 2 rounds less of Rage seems insignificant in Pathfinder.
In general, duration has not been nerfed in Pathfinder though. If anything it's slightly better. 4+Con modifier (unmodified) +2 rounds per level after 1st.
It's actually about the same at first level in PF as in 3.5 and better at higher levels because you're not limited to a number of times per day. You're only limited by rounds so if you only need it for 3 rounds you can still save the rest of your rounds for later.
3.5 Barb at level 8 could rage 3 times per day at 3+Con Mod rounds. Assuming an 18 Con and a +2 Con mod from items he would have a duration of 11 rounds each time he raged but always used 11 rounds. How many fights last 11 rounds?
PF Barb at level 8 can rage for 4+Con Mod+14 rounds. Assuming an 18 Con he would have a duration of 22 rounds total. That's 2/3 of the number of rounds the 3.5 gets but the PF Barb can use them in 4 round increments if he wants giving him 5 rages with 2 rounds left over. Or he can use all 22 rounds in one fight if it lasts that long.
Whirling Frenzy comes from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. I presume the OP is using other 3.5 sources. The Lion Totem from the Champions splatbook grants Pounce for a Barbarian at level 2, giving up fast movement.
Pounce in PF has been repeatedly been something relegated only to natural weapons and their usage. The only barb variant that gets it in the AP is the Barb using natural claws.
==Aelryinth
The +2 Ref replaces the +2 Will save. I think it's a fair trade mechanically considering it's one of the weak saves of the class.
Strictly speaking, the +2 Ref replaces the +2 Fort that the normal barbarian gains from having higher Con. The lack of a +2 Will save is not accounted for anywhere (except maybe to offset the fact that there's nothing directly related to the -2 AC of the normal Barbarian).