Hi all. I've been toying with the idea of building a rogue/alchemist lately. I just got my copy of the APG and I kinda like the alchemist class ... at least on paper anyways. I don't know if I should go
1) more of a melee/dex based combat rogue that uses his mutagens and tumbles through battle with the spring attack/mobility line and positions himself for the sneak attack with his finess and rapier skills. Perhaps even tossing in some poisons as well. When that isn't available, he uses his bombs. This would also make a good support character for the group I think with using the extracts.
2) the other possibility would be more of a ranged/bow attacking rogue that sneaks around the peripheries looking for opportunities to snipe from the shadows, launch bombs, and use poisons too of course.
I believe both would be fun to play. I am leaning more towards the first build rather than the second as that suits my play style more.
So my question is, how would YOU build/play this character class mix? Lets set a level limit at 10 levels. What would your stats, feats, skills, and play style look like? I will post mine as soon as I find the email I sent with the build I made on it! 8)
Unforunently you can't deal precision based damage with a splash weapon so it is kinda a no-go.
Sorry LostSoul but you lost me. What do you mean precision based damage? I don't expect to get sneak attacks with the bombs. The one build would focus more on the mutagen use to boost stats and melee prowess to get in there and poke things. The other build would be more of a stealthy sniper type. Both using poisons of course.
Oh ok then. As long as you know the above then have at it. Peronally I would say go either the sneak attack route or the throwing bombs route. If you want to multiclass I would say fighter would be a good class for either, or maybe ranger with the rogue. In my experience the rogue and alchemist are like oil and water and dont mix very well.
Just my $.02 take it or leave it.
Race: Gnome
Stat importance: Int, Dex, Con, Str, Wis, Cha
Lvl
1 Alchemist 1 - Alchemy, Bomb 1d6, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Throw Anything. Feat: Weapon Finess
2 Rogue (Poisoner, Scout) 1 - Sneak Attack +1d6, Poison Use
3 Alchemist 2 - Discovery (Smoke Bomb), Poison Resist +2, Poison Use. Feat: Shadow Strike
4 Rogue 2 - Evasion, Rogue Talent (Combat Trick (Blind Fight))
5 Alchemist 3 - Bomb 2d6, Swift Alchemy. Feat: Master Alchemist
6 Rogue 3 - Sneak Attack +2d6, Master Poisoner
7 Alchemist 4 - Discovery (Concentrate Poison). Feat: Skill Focus (Craft (Alchemy))
8 Alchemist 5 - Bomb 3d6, Poison Resist +4
9 Alchemist 6 - Discovery (Sticky Poison), Swift Poisoning. Feat: Skill Focus (Stealth)
10 Rogue 4 - Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth), Scout’s Charge
For skills obviously Craft Alchemy and stealth are a must, I'd also take acrobatics, disable device, use magic device (maybe)
Favored class Alchemist (get those extra smoke bombs)
Use mutagen to boost dex or str. Throw smoke bomb, rush in to attack from concealment. Make injury poisons and concentrate them when planning attacks. When you need to charge in and hit them hard.
Ok, this is mostly what I had in mind. With the ability to move through combat areas with ease he can get into sneak attack positions quite easily and land a bunch of them. The guy is damned near unhittable in combat with an AC of 28 if he is moving PLUS 20% concealment! And that is with normal non-magic armor. Moreover, he will land 5d6 +2 damage with the short sword plus poison. He can play off the positions of the tanks and land sneak attacks.
Str:13 +1
Dex:20 +5
Con:12 /
Int:13 +1
Wis:10 /
Cha:9 -1
Feats:
Dodge* Dex 13 +1 dodge bonus to AC
Mobility* Dodge +4 AC against attacks of opportunity from movement Spring Attack* Mobility, base attack bonus +4 Move before and after melee attack Wind Stance* Dex 15, Dodge, base attack bonus +6 Gain 20% concealment if you move
Rogue (8) Traits:
Sneak Attack: 4d6
Trapfinding, trap sense +2, evasion, uncanny dodge, Rogue Talent 1: Finesse Rogue (weapon finesse) Rogue Talent 2: Combat Trick (extra combat feat) Combat Expertise* Int 13 Trade attack bonus for AC bonus Rogue Talent 3: weapon training (gives weapon focus for short sword) Rogue Talent 4: resiliency (once per day when reduced to 0 hp get 1 temp HP per level)
Combat Stuffs:
Studded Leather Armor: gives AC 5
AC: 10 + 5 (armor) + 5 (Dex) +1 (dodge) = 21 plus 20% concealment or 24 when using combat expertise (28 if moving through AOO spaces) + tumble checks to mitigate this.
Alchemist (2):
I really should rewrite this like that guy above. Hrm
I almost cried when I read this part of wind stance.....
"...20% concealment against RANGED attacks..."
*sniffle
Wait a minute. In the Bomb description for Alchemist it states that bombs are considered weapons that an Alchemist can apply feats to. Why can't a person sneak attack with one?
I have an Alchemist 4/Rogue 2 myself that's based off a mutagen fighty build. I went for the strength build (with sneak attack damage)simply because of the claw/claw/bite attack you can pull off from a feral mutagen. Enlarged, feral mutagened, with a base strength of 16 means you'll be pulling off a +6 damage modifier on two 1d8 and one 2d6 attack with a high enough dexterity that you're still able to get around the battlefield pretty well. I still use bombs, but dedicate them to the first round or two of battle while I close the distance (think the now-standard switch-hitter build for rangers). I personally think this is a more viable build than the rapier build you outlined earlier.
That being said, I'm really not feeling the character. Sure I deal massive amounts of damage in combat and I'm beefy enough to stand next to the fighter, but the class feels empty. I have enough skills to feel useful out of combat and I certainly can hold my own in combat, so I'm thinking it's a style thing of the mad dwarf, but I could be wrong.
When I get home if I remember, I'll post up my stats.
Grem1089 wrote: Wait a minute. In the Bomb description for Alchemist it states that bombs are considered weapons that an Alchemist can apply feats to. Why can't a person sneak attack with one? CRB wrote: Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on
impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target
and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash
weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.
Thrown splash weapons require no weapon prof iciency,
so you don’t take the –4 nonprof iciency penalty. A hit
deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage
to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons
cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage
from the rogue’s sneak attack class feature).
The way I see it, slash weapons are pretty fragile since they break/explode on contact. Precision damage is about doing specific damage to vital spots, but splash weapons spread out over an area, so you can't get that precise with them.
Edit: fixed open tag
Eric Clingenpeel wrote: Precision damage is about doing specific damage to vital spots, but splash weapons spread out over an area, so you can't get that precise with them. But if you coat them in enough caustic ooze it seeps into all those fragile parts!
Krallek wrote: Hi all. I've been toying with the idea of building a rogue/alchemist lately. I just got my copy of the APG and I kinda like the alchemist class ... at least on paper anyways. I don't know if I should go
1) more of a melee/dex based combat rogue that uses his mutagens and tumbles through battle with the spring attack/mobility line and positions himself for the sneak attack with his finess and rapier skills. Perhaps even tossing in some poisons as well. When that isn't available, he uses his bombs. This would also make a good support character for the group I think with using the extracts.
2) the other possibility would be more of a ranged/bow attacking rogue that sneaks around the peripheries looking for opportunities to snipe from the shadows, launch bombs, and use poisons too of course.
I believe both would be fun to play. I am leaning more towards the first build rather than the second as that suits my play style more.
So my question is, how would YOU build/play this character class mix? Lets set a level limit at 10 levels. What would your stats, feats, skills, and play style look like? I will post mine as soon as I find the email I sent with the build I made on it! 8)
Wow, after 2 years I am FINALLY going to get a chance to test out this character idea. We are starting a new campaign with a new DM. The skinny of the campaign will be that we start at level 4 but as completely broke and down on your luck adventurers.
Brale Ha'Penny is a halfling rogue2/alchemist2
As a rogue I will focus on the finesse and 2 weapon fighting tree of feats and as an alchemist I will mainly use the Dex based mutagens to beef up my finesse attacks and ability to move through combat areas with ease.
I rolled up insane stats this morning. I've NEVER rolled this good before ... and I've rolled up a lot of characters. After racial adjustments this is where I ended up:
str 12 (+1)
int 16 (+3)
wis 12 (+1)
dex 20 (+5)
con 16 (+3)
cha 15 (+2)
Rogue 1: sneak attk 1d6, trapfinding, two weapon fighting
Rogue 2: evasion, rogue talent (weapon finesse)
Alchemist 1: Alchemy, bomb 1d6+3, brew potion, mutagen (dex), throw anything
Alchemist 2: Discovery (feral mutagen), poison resistance +2, poison use
AC: 19 normal studded leather (+3), dex (+5), halfling (+1)
23 mutated with dex mutagen (+4 to ac)
That seems pretty competitive given that I have among the worst armor in the game and no magical bonus. Plus, I will be putting in a ton of points into acrobatics for tumbling through combat.
Attacking will look like this:
Mutated: bite(bab +1, finesse +7, halfling +1 for +9 to hit and 2d6 + 1 damage if I get sneak in), and 2 claws (bab +1, finesse +7, halfling +1 for +9 to hit and 2d4 + 2d6 + 2 damage again with sneak)
I'm excited!
Krallek wrote: Krallek wrote: Hi all. I've been toying with the idea of building a rogue/alchemist lately. I just got my copy of the APG and I kinda like the alchemist class ... at least on paper anyways. I don't know if I should go
1) more of a melee/dex based combat rogue that uses his mutagens and tumbles through battle with the spring attack/mobility line and positions himself for the sneak attack with his finess and rapier skills. Perhaps even tossing in some poisons as well. When that isn't available, he uses his bombs. This would also make a good support character for the group I think with using the extracts.
2) the other possibility would be more of a ranged/bow attacking rogue that sneaks around the peripheries looking for opportunities to snipe from the shadows, launch bombs, and use poisons too of course.
I believe both would be fun to play. I am leaning more towards the first build rather than the second as that suits my play style more.
So my question is, how would YOU build/play this character class mix? Lets set a level limit at 10 levels. What would your stats, feats, skills, and play style look like? I will post mine as soon as I find the email I sent with the build I made on it! 8)
Wow, after 2 years I am FINALLY going to get a chance to test out this character idea. We are starting a new campaign with a new DM. The skinny of the campaign will be that we start at level 4 but as completely broke and down on your luck adventurers.
Brale Ha'Penny is a halfling rogue2/alchemist2
As a rogue I will focus on the finesse and 2 weapon fighting tree of feats and as an alchemist I will mainly use the Dex based mutagens to beef up my finesse attacks and ability to move through combat areas with ease.
I rolled up insane stats this morning. I've NEVER rolled this good before ... and I've rolled up a lot of characters. After racial adjustments this is where I ended up:
str 12 (+1)
int 16 (+3)
wis 12 (+1)
dex 20 (+5)
con 16 (+3)
cha 15 (+2)
Rogue 1: sneak attk 1d6,... Why not just go pure vivisectionist or a rogue/vivisectionist so you can have stacking sneak attack damage?
Pretty confident that vivisectionist, leaning towards evil, would be disallowed in the campaign we are about to start.
DM Krallek wrote: Pretty confident that vivisectionist, leaning towards evil, would be disallowed in the campaign we are about to start. Nowhere does it say a vivisectionist is evil. He can be just a surgeon, in fact a renowned one that practices on animals so he can save humanoid lives.
Unless you are an Antipaladin, no class requires you to be evil. I would play a goblin or hobgoblin, as the stats fit nicely, and the boost to stealth is awesome. Very flavor fitting as well.
I'm guessing Viv. Alchemist wasn't out when this thread was started? If doing a Viv. Alchemist, I'd either do no rogue at all or only as a dip to get more class skills and maybe open up other rogue talents. Alchemist class is so much better otherwise.
Mini rant
I played a halfling rogue/alchemist in a campaign recently that went from level 3 to 14, and had a pretty good time with it. I went mostly alchemist: rogue 4/alchemist 10. A few cliff notes on the experience:
- Your damage will not compare to the fighters and paladins you might be playing with. It just won't.
- That being said, rogue skills can be complimented very will with extracts to make you a master of any non-combat situation. My character was a fixer/leader in the underground resistance to a devilish occupation, so he knew how to get around without anyone finding out, and had contacts in every city.
- Once you are able to get fast bombs, your damage ability will improve greatly, especially if you can get rapid shot.
- Force bombs are even better than they sound.
- Precise bombs is really required if you want to use them much in combat at all.
According to the Pathfinder Open Gaming License the vivisectionist
a vivisectionist’s goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil.
Its true that it doesn't specifically require you to be evil but what you do is considered by most to be an act of evil. Much the same in my book. Its kind of like the cleric in our current party that says necromancy isn't evil because he does it for the greater good. 8)
Anyways, thanks for the tip. I will run it by the DM to see if he will allow it. The original intent was to use the core book and apg only.
Also, to StreamOfTheSky, I don't much care for the bomb aspect of the alchemist class for anything other than an initial attack. Hitting your own party with frequent splash damage really lowers your status in the party overall (prior to getting precise bombs that is). Anyone with AoE spells can attest. The build was leaning more towards getting right into the thick of things and landing sneak attacks a plenty. If you read my original post, I could theoretically land 3 sneak attacks every round I can claw, claw, bite a flanked or flat footed enemy. And this is only at level 4! All 3 of those attacks at the full base attack bonus. Compared to a level 4 rogue with all the penalties of two weapon fighting I would come out ahead mathematically I think. I would need crunch the numbers to be sure as I would be several levels behind the pure rogue.
Krallek wrote: According to the Pathfinder Open Gaming License the vivisectionist
a vivisectionist’s goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil.
Its true that it doesn't specifically require you to be evil but what you do is considered by most to be an act of evil. Much the same in my book. Its kind of like the cleric in our current party that says necromancy isn't evil because he does it for the greater good. 8)
Anyways, thanks for the tip. I will run it by the DM to see if he will allow it. The original intent was to use the core book and apg only.
Also, to StreamOfTheSky, I don't much care for the bomb aspect of the alchemist class for anything other than an initial attack. Hitting your own party with frequent splash damage really lowers your status in the party overall (prior to getting precise bombs that is). Anyone with AoE spells can attest. The build was leaning more towards getting right into the thick of things and landing sneak attacks a plenty. If you read my original post, I could theoretically land 3 sneak attacks every round I can claw, claw, bite a flanked or flat footed enemy. And this is only at level 4! All 3 of those attacks at the full base attack bonus. Compared to a level 4 rogue with all the penalties of two weapon fighting I would come out ahead mathematically I think. I would need crunch the numbers to be sure as I would be several levels behind the pure rogue.
My advice would be to reskin the vivisectionist as the new and improved rogue. If you start with 14 int you'll have 6 skill points, starting with 16 int would not be a total waste, unlike the actual rogue class, and you'll have 7 skill points.
Whatever class skills from the rogue list that you are missing just get it from traits. Like acrobatics, stealth, and bluff. Additional traits is a great feat to recreate a rogue from the vivisectionist shell.
If I was to min/max I'll do a beastmorph/vivisectionist but just reskin it as a rogue in the fluff.
You can get feral mutagen at level 2 and start sneak attacking with 3 primary natural attacks.
By third level you'll have darkvision and at level 10 you can get pounce.
Get the tumor familiar, make it a Compsognathus for a +4 to initiative. Maybe even get improve initiative, this will get you a +8 initiative before dex. Remember to get a AoMF of Agile and tear sh*t up.
Krallek wrote: According to the Pathfinder Open Gaming License the vivisectionist
a vivisectionist’s goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil.
Its true that it doesn't specifically require you to be evil but what you do is considered by most to be an act of evil.
This is fluff. The class doesn't require you to be evil. In fact, you can stack the archetypes of Chirurgeon and vivisectionist, since the only normal class feature that vivisectionist replaces is Bomb, and Chirurgeon only replaces Poison use, poison resistance and poison immunity. The fluff for Chirurgeon is a person who has studied anatomy to be able to heal. There's no logical reason one couldn't use knowledge of anatomy to both heal and harm.
|
