Why not optimize the other way, increasing their defensive options against SoL's?
Contrary to popular optinion, that's where the Spell Compendium comes in -- it provides simple methods for long-term save boosts that don't cost multiple feats. The conviction spells, for example, are a particular favorite of most Optimization Level III gamers.
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Why not optimize the other way, increasing their defensive options against SoL's?Contrary to popular optinion, that's where the Spell Compendium comes in -- it provides simple methods for long-term save boosts that don't cost multiple feats. The conviction spells, for example, are a particular favorite of most Optimization Level III gamers.
One of the many reasons the spell compendium is broken.
My biggest fear for ultimate magic is someone will get cute with DC raising options that stack.
and we've also already been over how standard WBL is still standard when you use craft feats to spend that money more efficiently.
I'm still waiting for a FAQ response on that one. The rules are definitely ambiguous about it.
that's where the Spell Compendium comes in -- it provides simple methods for long-term save boosts that don't cost multiple feats.One of the many reasons the spell compendium is broken.
Broken? Weren't you just saying that heavily-optimized Rocket Launcher Tag isn't necessarily a "fun" way to play? Better defenses makes CoDzilla's game more like your game (just with bigger numbers, which then even out). And now you're saying that's a bad thing?
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I'm still waiting for a FAQ response on that one. The rules are definitely ambiguous about it.
and we've also already been over how standard WBL is still standard when you use craft feats to spend that money more efficiently.
Oh god yes. If it works the way people around here thinks it works, I would really just like for them to say 'This feat allows you to make whatever item you want for the same price as just purchasing the item.'
Better defenses makes CoDzilla's game more like your game (just with bigger numbers, which then even out). That's a bad thing?
Remember, he believes that characters don't need save buffs to survive current SoDs.
Remember, he believes that characters don't need save buffs to survive current SoDs.
Despite the fact that Pathfinder jacked up the DCs more (by granting a racial +2 to the casting stat of everyone who might play a caster), and also made saving against them more difficult (first by preventing PrC dipping for save boosts, and second by jacking up the price on physical stat-boost items, requiring more investment in physical stats to make up the gap (even including a racial +2 in one stat), and thus making it harder to keep Wisdom at a decent level)?
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Broken? Weren't you just saying that heavily-optimized Rocket Launcher Tag isn't necessarily a "fun" way to play? Better defenses makes CoDzilla's game more like your game (just with bigger numbers, which then even out). And now you're saying that's a bad thing?that's where the Spell Compendium comes in -- it provides simple methods for long-term save boosts that don't cost multiple feats.One of the many reasons the spell compendium is broken.
I'm saying when they start getting cute around the edges with save DC they can turn it into rocket tag.
Right now, the SoL spells aren't SoD spells for the most part. With the exception of a few single target or very close range spells, they fall more under the save or have limited effectiveness for awhile.
Once you make must have items, they become assumed and suddenly it makes sense to add a ton of ways to boost spell DC.
That is what happened in 3.5, to much worse effect with actual SoD spells.
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On the subject of SoL spells in PF, Kirth ran Carnival of Tears for us Monday night.
The CR 7 nymph in PF has a DC 21 Fort save for her blinding beauty. A 7th level characters base Fort is +5. And this was a 5th level module. So, yeah.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/nymph
She also only has 60 hit points and a 23 AC. It's only going to be an issue for someone wanting to close on her, like a martial class. Base high fort save is +4, by 5th you should have some kind of con bonus to get you to at least +2 or 3 even if you didn't start with it, so you are looking at between 25 and 30% to make it even if you don't have a cloak of resistance, higher if you do.
On the flip side, look at her saves. Good luck SoL with a 5th level party vs Fort +13, Ref +18, Will +16.
If you make the knowledge roll, any party with ranged attacks can drop her in a round. SoL casters would be in some trouble.
This is how I like to see dragons as well. But you already know that by doing this you have increased its CR by at least 8.Yeah, the low end runts are far from impressive, I know. And I am not so gung-ho about dragons that ALL dragons need to be their own legend. I am speaking of the old ones who survived natural selection.
I rarely take BBEG creatures straight from the bestiary. The dragon in question for my post-kingmaker campain both has class levels (up to +4 to stats) and the advanced template (additional +4). This means a great red has around 30-ish in all mental stats, before applying magical items (yes, he is obscenely rich, as he conquered nations and such, and since it is the end-game battle, it doesn't matter if the PCs become millionaires, as the game is over.)
8? How do you get 8 by adding a single level of sorcerer and the "advanced" template? You mean the mooks? Meh, spend some cash on planar binding, the dragon knows they are coming. Summon a lot, dimensional anchor on them, and it's on. At this point CR doesn't matter. Might be fun to see what the total is as a novelty.
The point is, as written, the big bad end-boss WILL go down in less than 2 rounds unless I pimp it out. Just like the one time I left a boss alone as written, and it turned out that the fighter could have solo'd him in 2 rounds. Any random encounter I take right from the book, regardless of being APL-2 or APL+5 pretty much goes like this:
- wizard disables and/or buffs
- cleric does the same
- cavalier buffs (surprising how many bonuses they can muster)
- fighter, ranger and cleric's pala-cohort demolish the sitting ducks.
Not a good recipe for the final blowout of a long-running campain, amirite?
It's only going to be an issue for someone wanting to close on her, like a martial class.
QED.
Wrong, as usual.
If an enemy has x amount of gold to spend on treasure, doing so is using it exactly as intended. Not doing so is either a buff or a nerf, depending on which direction you go.
If you are using it exactly as intended, then you wouldn't use all of it for combat items. Take a look at how it should be divvied up according to the people who wrote the game. Any major deviation from that is not how it was intended.
We've also already been over how PBs over 15 does not raise the power bar, and we've also already been over how standard WBL is still standard when you use craft feats to spend that money more efficiently. Just like it's still standard WBL when you spend 25k to get +5 AC (armor) as it is when you spend 25k to get +7 AC (+3 armor, +2 natural armor, +2 deflection).
If I played with lower PB what would happen is all the real power would still be there, just martial characters are non functional.
You countered your own argument. Either higher point buy makes you more powerful or it doesn't. You should pick one. If it doesn't, then you don't need to have 25 point buy or higher and you don't need to start your casters with a 20 in their casting stat. If it does matter, then your opening statement is wrong.
When I was talking about WBL, I was talking about ways to bypass it with item creation feats. If you allow for that, that's cool but it does make your characters more powerful and means they need more powerful opponents. If you don't allow the PCs to violate WBL by a significant margin, then you don't need to boost the opposition.
The Pit Fiend is entitled to double standard treasure, which means two thirds of an NPC allotment. It also has a UMD high enough to auto pass most magical items that require a UMD check. Between that, and the fact it is standard for enemies to use consumables to make up for the stat differences between them and PCs on the cheap and it is clear that, even in Normal difficulty a Pit Fiend who is not using potions, and scrolls, and other consumable effects to raise their stats is being nerfed. It's status as a CR 20 is entirely dependent on it doing so. If it does not, it automatically drops multiple levels.
If you build the hoard according to RAW, his treasure would be worth 88k for slow progression games, 134k for medium progression games, and 200k for fast progression games. You may notice that those numbers are significantly lower than the NPC wealth. NPC wealth for a CR 20 opponent is 246k. For slow progression it's 35% of NPC wealth, for medium progression it's 54%, and for fast progression it's 80%.
The pit fiend should probably have his treasure split up the same way as PCs and NPCs. That would be 25% offense, 25% defense, 25% on other magic item, 15% on consumables, 10% on other gear and coins. Using those values, we are now at:
Slow Progression: 22k for offense, 22k for defense, 22k for other magic items, 13.2k for consumables, and 8.8k for other gear (non-magical).
Medium Progression: 33.5k for each offense and defense and other magic, 20.1k for consumables, and 13.4k for other gear (non-magical).
Fast Progression: 50k for each offense and defense and other magic, 30k for consumables, and 20k for non-magical gear.
Looking at those values, I don't see the pit fiend being more powerful than other CR 20 encounters. All of this is found under Building a Treasure Hoard. It's one of the things that I think really helps GMs understand how to place appropriate treasure without unbalancing the encounters.
8? How do you get 8 by adding a single level of sorcerer and the "advanced" template?
I was reading quickly and I misread the +4 stats as +4 class. That, and I thought you were saying that you applied the advanced template 4 times. I misread it.
One of thing things I like that 4E did was create categories of monsters (solo, skirmisher, etc). I don't like the implementation but I do like the idea behind it. To me, a dragon should be an incredible battle and the party should have to work very hard to defeat it. If it's over in 1-2 rounds, that doesn't feel right at all.
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On the subject of SoL spells in PF, Kirth ran Carnival of Tears for us Monday night.
The CR 7 nymph in PF has a DC 21 Fort save for her blinding beauty. A 7th level characters base Fort is +5. And this was a 5th level module. So, yeah.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/nymph
She also only has 60 hit points and a 23 AC. It's only going to be an issue for someone wanting to close on her, like a martial class. Base high fort save is +4, by 5th you should have some kind of con bonus to get you to at least +2 or 3 even if you didn't start with it, so you are looking at between 25 and 30% to make it even if you don't have a cloak of resistance, higher if you do.
On the flip side, look at her saves. Good luck SoL with a 5th level party vs Fort +13, Ref +18, Will +16.
If you make the knowledge roll, any party with ranged attacks can drop her in a round. SoL casters would be in some trouble.
Actually, the party wizard really wasn't doing much that module, as he actively enjoyed watching humans torn apart by pissed off fey.
It's only going to be an issue for someone wanting to close on her, like a martial class.QED.
A single encounter does not mean that martial characters can't handle things. It means that in this case, it will be more challenging for them.
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The party had no cold iron weapons. Ranged attacks were ineffective.
So this is one of those times evocation would be useful :)
And if the martial classes got through they would do a good bit of damage even with damage reduction. And they should be hitting more than 50% of the time. Even if they are blinded, if they were charging they still get the one attack with concealment, and could take off half the hit points with a single attack (40 average damage -10)
It could be a hard fight for CR 5, but it is supposed to be at +2 CR.
Actually, the party wizard really wasn't doing much that module, as he actively enjoyed watching humans torn apart by pissed off fey.
The more I think about it, the more glad I am that the adventure turned out the way it did...
Did I mention that this particular DM likes the game best when the "story" doesn't turn out at all the way he'd envisioned?|
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Actually, the party wizard really wasn't doing much that module, as he actively enjoyed watching humans torn apart by pissed off fey.The more I think about it, the more glad I am that the adventure turned out the way it did...
Did I mention that this particular DM likes the game best when the "story" doesn't turn out at all the way he'd envisioned?
What was unexpected? You put a human hating elf in a position to watch humans get slaughtered, you should have completely expected that ;-)
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The party had no cold iron weapons. Ranged attacks were ineffective.So this is one of those times evocation would be useful :)
And if the martial classes got through they would do a good bit of damage even with damage reduction. And they should be hitting more than 50% of the time. Even if they are blinded, if they were charging they still get the one attack with concealment, and could take off half the hit points with a single attack (40 average damage -10)
It could be a hard fight for CR 5, but it is supposed to be at +2 CR.
Here's the problem they had: zero magical support. The elf wizard wasn't going to do anything to ruin the fey's fun.
Here's the problem they had: zero magical support. The elf wizard wasn't going to do anything to ruin the fey's fun.
What sort of magical support did the elf possess that might have changed the outcome?
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Here's the problem they had: zero magical support. The elf wizard wasn't going to do anything to ruin the fey's fun.What sort of magical support did the elf possess that might have changed the outcome?
Grease, glitterdust, bull's strength, haste, dispel magic, a few other spells. I think I had a scroll or two that might have had a relevant spell.
The party had no cold iron weapons. Ranged attacks were ineffective.So this is one of those times evocation would be useful :)
And if the martial classes got through they would do a good bit of damage even with damage reduction. And they should be hitting more than 50% of the time. Even if they are blinded, if they were charging they still get the one attack with concealment, and could take off half the hit points with a single attack (40 average damage -10)
It could be a hard fight for CR 5, but it is supposed to be at +2 CR.
Are you tryin' to be insulting?! Humans, I swear!
Even after the mage hasted me, all I was doing was tickling her!
What sort of magical support did the elf possess that might have changed the outcome?
Battlefield contol spells, for a start, if nothing else to corral some of the herds of stampeding panicked commoners. Enlarge person, so the blinded monk could have successfully grappled the nymph. Stuff like that.
Are you tryin' to be insulting?! Humans, I swear!The party had no cold iron weapons. Ranged attacks were ineffective.So this is one of those times evocation would be useful :)
And if the martial classes got through they would do a good bit of damage even with damage reduction. And they should be hitting more than 50% of the time. Even if they are blinded, if they were charging they still get the one attack with concealment, and could take off half the hit points with a single attack (40 average damage -10)
It could be a hard fight for CR 5, but it is supposed to be at +2 CR.
Heh. He should learn from the insult master. Me.
Well, of course he is wrong. He's ciretose.
Bad form, CoD. Arguments stand on their factual merits, not by attaching ad hominems to them -- that's one of the things that separates us from them.
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It's only going to be an issue for someone wanting to close on her, like a martial class.QED.
An SoL cast is even more useless against those saves.
The Martial class is going to have +4 Base, +2 or 3 con, and probably by 5th a +1 cloak. So needs a 13 or so to make it.
Assuming no cold iron, base attack will be 5, add 5 for strength (your 5th, so it should be at least that) and you are at +10. Weapon focus +11, +1 weapon +12...so you are better than 50% to hit it.
Lets assume you didn't take blind fight (you may have, as you have 7 feats by now, but lets assume you don't.) and you are charging in. If you fail, you have a 50% miss chance on top of a 50% miss chance for ac, so you hit 25% of the time, worst case.
5th level caster just got 3rd level spells. Best cast, with spell focus an greater spell focus on a caster with 22 Int the fort save DC is 21. So the nymph has a better than 50% chance to shake off your spell and do nothing.
More likely, it saves 75% of the time on anything you cast.
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What sort of magical support did the elf possess that might have changed the outcome?Battlefield contol spells, for a start, if nothing else to corral some of the herds of stampeding panicked commoners. Enlarge person, so the blinded monk could have successfully grappled the nymph. Stuff like that.
I didn't have enlarge person memorized, IIRC. Other than that, yeah, I had my usual BC spells and stuff.
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The party had no cold iron weapons. Ranged attacks were ineffective.So this is one of those times evocation would be useful :)
And if the martial classes got through they would do a good bit of damage even with damage reduction. And they should be hitting more than 50% of the time. Even if they are blinded, if they were charging they still get the one attack with concealment, and could take off half the hit points with a single attack (40 average damage -10)
It could be a hard fight for CR 5, but it is supposed to be at +2 CR.
Are you tryin' to be insulting?! Humans, I swear!
Even after the mage hasted me, all I was doing was tickling her!
I did haste you, I forgot about that. Must be because you're an elf.
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The Martial class is going to have +4 Base, +2 or 3 con, and probably by 5th a +1 cloak. So needs a 13 or so to make it.
Assuming no cold iron, base attack will be 5, add 5 for strength (your 5th, so it should be at least that) and you are at +10. Weapon focus +11, +1 weapon +12...so you are better than 50% to hit it.
Lets assume you didn't take blind fight (you may have, as you have 7 feats by now, but lets assume you don't.) and you are charging in. If you fail, you have a 50% miss chance on top of a 50% miss chance for ac, so you hit 25% of the time, worst case.
See above in-character post.
I did haste you, I forgot about that. Must be because you're an elf.
High Elf even. Although I should doubt check the races doc and see if he should be rebuilt.
all I was doing was tickling her!
And with your sister watching! Elves have no shame...
Grease, glitterdust, bull's strength, haste, dispel magic, a few other spells. I think I had a scroll or two that might have had a relevant spell.Here's the problem they had: zero magical support. The elf wizard wasn't going to do anything to ruin the fey's fun.What sort of magical support did the elf possess that might have changed the outcome?
Against Fort +13, Ref +18, Will +16? Grease and glitterdust are surely right out. Even with a 22 caster stat and Spell Focus, that's a DC 20 tops.
What sort of magic buffs did she have that you would have dispelled?
Your buffs would certainly come in handy though, although if you are blind, full attacks tend not to be a feasible option.
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The Martial class is going to have +4 Base, +2 or 3 con, and probably by 5th a +1 cloak. So needs a 13 or so to make it.
Assuming no cold iron, base attack will be 5, add 5 for strength (your 5th, so it should be at least that) and you are at +10. Weapon focus +11, +1 weapon +12...so you are better than 50% to hit it.
Lets assume you didn't take blind fight (you may have, as you have 7 feats by now, but lets assume you don't.) and you are charging in. If you fail, you have a 50% miss chance on top of a 50% miss chance for ac, so you hit 25% of the time, worst case.
See above in-character post.
I did haste you, I forgot about that. Must be because you're an elf.High Elf even. Although I should doubt check the races doc and see if he should be rebuilt.
Which one?
Which one?
The party had no cold iron weapons. Ranged attacks were ineffective.
In general I think at least a handful of cold iron arrows are pretty reasonable standard gear for a level 5 martialish character.
Which isn't to say that you'll never be caught without them or that there are never campaign reasons not to have them, but usually I would feel like a character that was caught without them when he needed them had made a mistake. There's not a small number of things with CI DR.
In general I think at least a handful of cold iron arrows are pretty reasonable standard gear for a level 5 martialish character.
To be fair, there was cold iron available on site, if they wanted to look for it... but as mentioned, the party wizard was having too much fun watching humans get dismembered, the backup ranger was too busy getting drunk on transmute human to tree ale, and the monk was blind.
In general I think at least a handful of cold iron arrows are pretty reasonable standard gear for a level 5 martialish character.To be fair, there was cold iron available on site, if they wanted to look for it... but as mentioned, the party wizard was having too much fun watching humans get dismembered, the backup ranger was too busy getting drunk on transmute human to tree ale, and the monk was blind.
Fair enough. My point was just that I don't think the nymph in general is exactly an argument for the uselessness of martial characters.
Hey, at least they're not 3.5 druids now. :)
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Grease, glitterdust, bull's strength, haste, dispel magic, a few other spells. I think I had a scroll or two that might have had a relevant spell.Here's the problem they had: zero magical support. The elf wizard wasn't going to do anything to ruin the fey's fun.What sort of magical support did the elf possess that might have changed the outcome?Against Fort +13, Ref +18, Will +16? Grease and glitterdust are surely right out. Even with a 22 caster stat and Spell Focus, that's a DC 20 tops.
What sort of magic buffs did she have that you would have dispelled?
Your buffs would certainly come in handy though, although if you are blind, full attacks tend not to be a feasible option.
Well 5th level, full attack is a single attack unless you are TWF.
Well 5th level, full attack is a single attack unless you are TWF.
Or hasted! (Or monk w/ flurry, or archer with rapid, etc.)