How to compute CMB & CMD for swarms

[chopswil]

I've seen some swarms with CMB value but no CMD and I've seen some with neither.

What are the rules for swarm CMB & CMD?

thanks

[Happler]

chopswil wrote:

I've seen some swarms with CMB value but no CMD and I've seen some with neither.

What are the rules for swarm CMB & CMD?

thanks

Just curious on this one, what type of combat maneuver are you thinking of trying vs a swarm? From the PRD "they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent" and they are not armed for disarm or sunder, plus I do not think that drag, reposition (both part of grapple in a way), steal (nothing to take), and dirty trick (does not seem logical to me) should work either.

[Larry Lichman]

I do not believe CMD applies to Swarms, as combat maneuvers are useless against them (correct me if I'm wrong). After all, you can't trip, bull rush, grapple, or perform any other Combat Maneuver on them because they are, essentially, a group of many creatures occupying a small area as opposed to a single creature.

As for CMB, I would assume this value applies to Swarms that have a special property that allows them to perform some kind of combat maneuver, so a value is provided for them. Can you provide an example of Swarm that lists a CMB value?

I may be incorrect in this, but I'm sure a Paizonian with more knowledge than myself can confirm/refute my supposition.

Hope this helps!

[Nightwish]

A swarm of larger creatures, like birds, might be able to accomplish a bull rush. The Murder of Crows swarm appears in the Kingmaker AP.

[chopswil]

Larry Lichman wrote:

I do not believe CMD applies to Swarms, as combat maneuvers are useless against them (correct me if I'm wrong). After all, you can't trip, bull rush, grapple, or perform any other Combat Maneuver on them because they are, essentially, a group of many creatures occupying a small area as opposed to a single creature.

As for CMB, I would assume this value applies to Swarms that have a special property that allows them to perform some kind of combat maneuver, so a value is provided for them. Can you provide an example of Swarm that lists a CMB value?

I may be incorrect in this, but I'm sure a Paizonian with more knowledge than myself can confirm/refute my supposition.

Hope this helps!

Amoeba Swarm, Bestiary 2 CMB -12.

I think its incorrect but I'm unsure of all the rules...

[BigNorseWolf]

I think they're immune/cant perform combat maneuvers. That would probably require a little more coordination and teamwork than most swarms have.