Ok, one of my player wants to play a Warmage in my ongoing Pathfinder game, and I was wondering if the class is balanced when compared to Pathfinder's core classes.
The Warmage does seem to overshadow the Sorcerer. However, the player will play a race that do not have any racial bonus to Intelligence and Charisma, so this should balance the class a little. I'm using the 15 points buy system.
If you people think that I should not allow the Warmage in my campaing, I will try to convince the player into playing a Magus or a Eldritch Knight instead.
One more thing. In my campaing, the PC have something like 50% to 75% of the standard WBL. I know that I should nerf full casters because of that. In your opinion, what aspect of the Warmage should I nerf? I was thinking about removing the "you automatically know every Warmage's spells" part. It seems a little overpowered. I would give him instead the ability to learn Warmage's spells in the same way a Sorcerer learns Sorcerer's spells. I was also thinking about reducing his number of spells/day.
I've never had a problem with warmage. At a casual glance, they seem terrifying, but in my opinion, they're really one of the less imposing classes from 3.5. Yes, they always have the right nuke for the job, but nukes is [i]really[i] all that they get. A well-built sorcerer is going to outshine them nearly every time.
The thing about the warmage is that they have more blasty spells than anyone really needs, and they pay for that by sacrificing access to such important abilities as teleportation, flight, or invisibility. All they've really got going for them is easy access to every type of energy damage and slightly higher damage on the spells they cast. Their ability to cast spells in armor isn't much of an advantage since they don't get any of the protective spells - I've often seen warmages with lower AC than a wizard or sorcerer of the same level.
Also keep in mind some of the fundamental boosts in power of the other base classes. The d6 hit die of the warmage is now standard for arcane spellcasters. I'd say you can probably keep them as is and they'll still be a little underpowered relative to the other PC classes.
But they also have very good crowd control spells, like Black Tentacles and Stinking Cloud, and don't forget about Advanced Learning.
Advanced learning is still very limited because of the restriction on spell schools. Ultimately, warmages are balanced by their lack of defense or utility spells. They might shine in a direct confrontation, but they tend to fair poorly in nearly every other aspect of the game, and if they piss off the enemy too much, they tend to drop fairly rapidly, lacking an easy means of escape.
I think you're right, I overlooked the Advanced Learning's restrictions. Now I see the Warmage as the ultimate glass cannon : a laser cannon made of a very thin layer of glass. As long as I don't throw to much monsters with energy vulnerability at my PCs, it should work just fine.
I think it could be interesting to throw monsters with mixed resistances and vulnerabilities towards their party. Then they throw a spell into a group of foes that may decimate some while leaving others untouched. Make them mix it up a little.
"Hawhawhawwww! This half of the group is immune to fire, but this other half is vulnerable to fire! What will you dooooooo puny warmage!?"
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"Chain Lightning. With my warmage edge that comes out to..." *rattlerattlerattle* "58 damage each, please reflex save for half damage at a DC of 22."
The warmage does not overshadow a sorcerer, unless all your sorc's do is blast, but since that is basically what warmages do they should be better at it. I think a sorc would give a DM more trouble than a warmade would. Protection from Energy, and Energy Resistance can cut down on a war mage's power along with high reflex saves, and evasion.
I have some experience with the warmage as well, and I'd have no problem with someone paying one in my Pathfinder game. That's kinda strange coming from me, because I moved to Pathfinder in order to get away from a lot of 3.5 material and never allow it in!
I have some experience with the warmage as well, and I'd have no problem with someone paying one in my Pathfinder game. That's kinda strange coming from me, because I moved to Pathfinder in order to get away from a lot of 3.5 material and never allow it in!
You need to open your mind (and start the reactor) Quaids, er... I mean Blueluck. Sure, there is a lot of crap in 3.5 splatbooks, but it would be really sad to let all the good stuff go away just because of that. When it comes to allowing 3.5 material, I adopt the "case-by-case" approach. :)
My main issue with the warmage is that I do not like his spell list and even if it is a limited scope list I do not like the free pick of 20 to 40 spells of a single level to use.
I'd probably make my own variant deleting alot of spells from the list and giving him a spell-like ability which acts like a mix of eldritch blast and the various orb spells. Choosing to use certain energy types, increasing range, make it an area attack or transfer it through a weapon for example. That will take care of alot of the non-stop blasting of the warmage allowing you to limit his spell list much like a sorceror and making for a bit more variety between warmages.
My main issue with the warmage is that I do not like his spell list and even if it is a limited scope list I do not like the free pick of 20 to 40 spells of a single level to use.
I'd probably make my own variant deleting alot of spells from the list and giving him a spell-like ability which acts like a mix of eldritch blast and the various orb spells. Choosing to use certain energy types, increasing range, make it an area attack or transfer it through a weapon for example. That will take care of alot of the non-stop blasting of the warmage allowing you to limit his spell list much like a sorceror and making for a bit more variety between warmages.
Yeah, I never liked this class because of this very aspect of it. Part of the fun of playing a spellcaster is choosing your spells. The Warmage can't even do that. That means that all Warmages in the multiverse know exactly the same spells. That's dumb...
I saw one variant of the warmage that allowed them to pick a non-evocation spell for their Advanced Learning class feature, but it raised the spell by 1 level. So, charm monster would be 2nd level, see invisiblity would be 3rd level, dispel magic would be 4th level, greater invisiblity would be 5th level, teleport would be 6th level, etc. etc. It seemed like a fairly balanced way to add some versatility to the warmage.
Maybe use this conversion of the Warmage? It increases the number of Advanced Learning class features to 9, adds a minor spell-like ability that does ranged combat maneuvers, boosts Warmage Edge a bit, and increases the number of armor proficiencies the warmage can eventually use.
Warmage
BAB: +1/2
Good Saves: Will
Hit Dice: 1d6
Class Skills: Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge arcana, Knowledge history, Profession, Ride, Spellcraft.
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier
Warmages are proficient in all Simple Weapons. Warmages are proficient in Light Armor and Light Shields. At 6th level, the gain proficiency in Medium Armor and Heavy Shields. At 14th level, they gain proficiency in Heavy Armor.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Armored Mage (light), Warmage Edge (damage)
2. Arcane Combat Maneuvers
3. Advanced Learning
4. Sudden Empower
5. Advanced Learning
6. Armored Mage (medium)
7. Advanced Learning
8. Sudden Enlarge
9. Advanced Learning
10. Warmage Edge (Evocation caster level checks)
11. Advanced Learning, Arcane Combat Maneuvers (move action)
12. Sudden Widen
13. Advanced Learning
14. Armored Mage (heavy)
15. Advanced Learning
16. Sudden Maximize
17. Advanced Learning
18. Warmage Edge (Evocation Save DCs)
19. Advanced Learning
20. Sudden Quicken, Arcane Combat Maneuvers (swift action)
Armored Mage (Ex). Beginning at 1st level, warmages can cast their spells while wearing light armor and using a light shield without suffering from arcane spell failure. At 6th level, this ability improves and they can cast their spells while wearing Medium Armor and Heavy Shields without suffering from arcane spell failure. At 14th level, they can cast spells while wearing Heavy Armor without worrying about arcane spell failure.
Warmage Edge (Ex). Beginning at 1st level, warmages add their Intellegence bonus (if any) to the damage of their spells. This can only be applied once per spell. Beginning at 2nd level, they add half their warmage class level to their spell damage. At 10th level, the warmage adds his Intelligence bonus, if any, to his caster level checks when casting an evocation spell. At 18th level, the warmage adds his Intelligence bonus, if any, to the save DC of any evocation spell he casts.
Arcane Combat Maneuvers (Sp). Beginning at 2nd level, warmages can use Bull Rush, Disarm, Drag, Reposition, Steal, and Trip out to a range of 10 feet per class level as a standard action. Their Combat Maneuver Bonus for this ability is equal to their Caster Level + their Charisma modifier + their Warmage Edge bonus to damage (instead of their size bonus). This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + the warmage's Charisma bonus. At 11th level, the warmage can use this ability as a move action. At 20th level, he can use this ability as a swift action.
Advanced Learning (Ex). At 3rd level, and every odd level thereafter, the warmage adds a spell from the sorcerer/wizard list of spells to the list of spells that the warmage knows. If the warmage chooses an evocation spell, the spell cannot exceed the highest level spell the warmage can currently cast. If the warmage chooses a spell from any other school besides evocation (including Universal), the selected spell cannot be of a level that exceeds the highest spell level the warmage can cast -1. It is treated as a spell one level higher than it normally would be. For example, at 9th level, the warmage could choose to add Dispel Magic (normally a 3rd level spell) to his list of spells known as a 4th level spell.
Sudden Metamagic. At 4th level, the warmage gains Sudden Empower as a bonus feat. At 8th level, he gains Sudden Enlarge as a bonus feat. At 12th level, he gains Sudden Widen as a bonus feat. At 16th level, he gains Sudden Maximize as a bonus feat. At 20th level, the warmage gains Sudden Quicken as a bonus feat. If the warmage already has the designated feat when he gains this ability, he may choose any other metamagic feat that he qualifies for in place of the designated Sudden Metamagic feat.
In my game, I gave the same bonus that an Evoker gains (Intense Spell + Force Missile) to the Warmage. It turns out that the player in question is now playing a Fighter/Warmage, so he's more a threat to himself than to the game balance. For some reason, he was not interested in playing a Magus (he's new to Pathfinder and doesn't accept the changes from 3.5 very well, don't ask me why).
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I've been revising all the spontaneous specialist classes, because I for one always felt that the Warmage was lackluster overall, and some of the other classes had issues as well.
If you're interested in them, I've put them up on Googledocs here.
I have some experience with the warmage as well, and I'd have no problem with someone paying one in my Pathfinder game. That's kinda strange coming from me, because I moved to Pathfinder in order to get away from a lot of 3.5 material and never allow it in!You need to open your mind (and start the reactor) Quaids, er... I mean Blueluck. Sure, there is a lot of crap in 3.5 splatbooks, but it would be really sad to let all the good stuff go away just because of that. When it comes to allowing 3.5 material, I adopt the "case-by-case" approach. :)
Good for you, but telling someone who writes half their own material, lets players write their own material, writes his own playing games from scratch, and has run everything from HoL to HERO, that he needs to open his mind is presumptuous and rude.
I could not tell if Maerimydra was being pretentious or not. What is the Quaids reference about?
I've been revising all the spontaneous specialist classes, because I for one always felt that the Warmage was lackluster overall, and some of the other classes had issues as well.
If you're interested in them, I've put them up on Googledocs here.
nice work on the classes, some nice ideas to use if I ever come around to rewriting them myself ^_^
Good for you, but telling someone who writes half their own material, lets players write their own material, writes his own playing games from scratch, and has run everything from HoL to HERO, that he needs to open his mind is presumptuous and rude.
Sorry Blueluck, I didn't mean to insult you. The "open your mind" part was just a reference to Total Recall and was meant to be taken as a joke. What I was trying to say is that, if all the 3.5 material was part of the OGL (which is very unlikely), there would be good odds that some of the splat books' best material would end up in Pathfinder. Because of this, I do find stange that some people adopt the "everything from 3.5 is unbalanced crap" attitude. I mean, if they hate 3.5 so much, why do they play to Pathfinder in the first place? While the overall product quality may differ between Paizo and WotC, individual feats, spells and classes should be judged by their own caracteristics, not by the poor quality of WotC's splat books bloat release policy. Again, my apologies for putting you in the wrong basket and expressing myself in a way that seemed presumptuous.
My suggestion would be to make a warmage an 'alternate' sorcerer class.
Spellcasting & Armored Mage : A warmage can only cast sorcerer Conjuration spells that deal HP or stat damage and all sorcerer Evocation spells. In exchange for this tightly limited spellcasting ability, a warmage can learn an unlimited number of spells of that he can cast. If a warmage takes the 'extra spell' racial favored class ability, or any feat that grants an extra spell known, that spell can be any sorcerer spell that he does not already know, regardless of school, so long as it otherwise meets the requirements of the ability granting the spell.
Due to his rigorous and limited spell training, the warmage can cast arcane spells while wearing light armor without invoking spell failure penalty. The warmage adds light armor to his proficiencies.
These abilities replaces the normal spellcasting ability of a sorcerer.
Warmage Edge : A warmage is highly trained at delivering damage. A warmage adds his INT modifier to all damage done by spells if that damage affects HP (but not Stat damage). If he casts a spell that has multiple targets such as an AoE spell like fireball, all targets take the extra damage. If he casts a spell that targets multiple individuals, or a single individual multiple times, like magic missile he applies the bonus to each damage roll. Spells that do full damage to one target, and half damage to other targets, such as chain lightning halve the bonus damage for the secondary targets. This ability replaces the warmage's normal bloodline arcana.
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Chain lightning does the same amount of damage to all targets, the reflex save dc drops by 2 for each next target..E.G. 22 20 18....
I would change the warmage edge to apply the damage to all missiles, or for example meteors, if meteor swarm is cast. Also, i would allow the warmage to wear heavy armor without having to use the battle caster feat (3.5 yes). Everything else stays the same...
Gerrinson...awesome playing, and reasoning...your GM is't much of a GM...
Chain lightning does the same amount of damage to all targets, the reflex save dc drops by 2 for each next target..E.G. 22 20 18....
I would change the warmage edge to apply the damage to all missiles, or for example meteors, if meteor swarm is cast. Also, i would allow the warmage to wear heavy armor without having to use the battle caster feat (3.5 yes). Everything else stays the same...
Gerrinson...awesome playing, and reasoning...your GM is't much of a GM...
My bad on the chain lightning. Any spells that do that? Damage to one and less to others?
And the stuff I posted above, if the second bit you posted is also referring to it, had each magic missile, meteor, etc getting the edge.
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Nope...unless you count meteor swarm where a creature struck by the meteor head on takes bludgeoning damage (the caster must succeed on a ranged touch attack though), and the creature in the blast radius just takes fire damage.
The edge should be a must because the warmage is a bit underpowered considering the rest of the pathfinder classes.
My suggestion would be to make a warmage an 'alternate' sorcerer class. (NOTE: Edited to fix something I messed up on Edge).
Spellcasting & Armored Mage : A warmage can only cast sorcerer Conjuration spells that deal HP or stat damage and all sorcerer Evocation spells. In exchange for this tightly limited spellcasting ability, a warmage can learn an unlimited number of spells of that he can cast. If a warmage takes the 'extra spell' racial favored class ability, or any feat that grants an extra spell known, that spell can be any sorcerer spell that he does not already know, regardless of school, so long as it otherwise meets the requirements of the ability granting the spell.
Due to his rigorous and limited spell training, the warmage can cast arcane spells while wearing light armor without invoking spell failure penalty. The warmage adds light armor to his proficiencies.
These abilities replaces the normal spellcasting ability of a sorcerer.
Warmage Edge : A warmage is highly trained at delivering damage. A warmage adds his INT modifier to all damage done by spells if that damage affects HP (but not Stat damage). If he casts a spell that has multiple targets such as an AoE spell like fireball, all targets take the extra damage. If he casts a spell that targets multiple individuals, or a single individual multiple times, like magic missile he applies the bonus to each damage roll. For example, a Warmage with an Int of 18 would who casts a fireball that hits 4 opponents would add 4 to the damage dealt to each opponent. The same Warmage casting magic missile would add 4 damage to each missile. This ability replaces the warmage's normal bloodline arcana.
I think warmage edge should just be +1 damage per die on spells.
he should probably have a power that is like a warlocks eldritch blast to which he can add intelligence as a bonus, it would be nice to have these blasts deal energy damage of a chosen type (fire, acid, lightning or cold)
and add 'talents' to use this power in different ways. Like more energy types to choose from, change it in a cone, channel it through a weapon, or have interesting side effects like the orb spells did.
I'll see if I can find the book.. maybe I can mix the warlock mojo with the warmage to make it interesting.
Having played a Warmage, the class felt a little underwhelming without the reserve feats. Consider a slight rewrite of the war mage to make reserve feats standard. (Low damage energy based supernatural abilities similar tho the witch's hexes. Ohh, I like this idea, I'll be back).
I think warmage edge should just be +1 damage per die on spells.
he should probably have a power that is like a warlocks eldritch blast to which he can add intelligence as a bonus, it would be nice to have these blasts deal energy damage of a chosen type (fire, acid, lightning or cold)
and add 'talents' to use this power in different ways. Like more energy types to choose from, change it in a cone, channel it through a weapon, or have interesting side effects like the orb spells did.I'll see if I can find the book.. maybe I can mix the warlock mojo with the warmage to make it interesting.
I created a class like this, I can post it if you want (here or in another thread).
I created a class like this, I can post it if you want (here or in another thread).I think warmage edge should just be +1 damage per die on spells.
he should probably have a power that is like a warlocks eldritch blast to which he can add intelligence as a bonus, it would be nice to have these blasts deal energy damage of a chosen type (fire, acid, lightning or cold)
and add 'talents' to use this power in different ways. Like more energy types to choose from, change it in a cone, channel it through a weapon, or have interesting side effects like the orb spells did.I'll see if I can find the book.. maybe I can mix the warlock mojo with the warmage to make it interesting.
yes please, I can not locate my book at present time your version might give me something to tinker with meanwhile :)
Here it is.
Elementalist
Hit Die: d6
Base Attack Bonus: 1/2
Base Saves: Poor Fort, Poor Reflex, Good Will
Class Skills: Appraise, Craft, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Spellcraft
Skill Points per level: 2+Int Mod
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An elementalist is proficient with all simple but not with any type of armor or shields.
Lv. =Special
1= Elemental Blast 1d8+Int Mod
2= Spell Secret
3= Versatile Elements: +2 spell damage or 5 ft. radius burst
4= overcome energy resistance I
5= Elemental Blast 2d8+Int Mod
6= Spell Secret
7= Versatile Elements: +4 spell damage or 10 ft. radius burst
8= overcome energy resistance II
9= Elemental Blast 3d8+Int Mod
10= Spell Secret
11= Versatile Elements: +6 spell damage or 15 ft. radius burst
12= overcome energy resistance III
13= Elemental Blast 4d8+Int Mod
14= Spell Secret
15= Versatile Elements: +8 spell damage or 20 ft. radius burst
16= overcome energy resistance IV
17= Elemental Blast 5d8+Int Mod
18= Spell Secret
19= Versatile Elements: +10 spell damage or 25 ft. radius burst
20= overcome energy resistance V
Elemental Blast (Sp): The center of your class is the elemental blast. This Spell like ability is usable at will and deals 1d8 + int mod damage. This damage is acid, cold, electricity, or fire (your choice when you use the ability). To affect a creature you must hit with a ranged touch attack. This ability is effective out to close range.
For every 4 levels after first, the damage increases by 1d8.
Versatile Elements: At 3rd level, when you use your elemental blast, you may choose to have you Elemental blast deal an additional 2 points of damage, or or remove the touch attack and turn it into a 5 ft radius burst (Reflex save/half DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Int Mod). For every 4 levels after 3rd, the damage increases the damage increases by +2 or the radius increases by another 5 ft.
Overcome Energy Resistance: At 4th level choose one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). You treat creatures with resistance to that energy type as if there resistance were 5 less. this has no effect on energy immunity.
For every 4 levels after 4th, you may choose an additional energy type to reduce by 5, in addition, choose any one energy resistance you can overcome (including the one just gained) and increase it by 5.
For example, if you chose fire at 4th level, from then on whenever you target a creature with fire resistance using your elemental blast, you treat their fire resistance as if it were 5 lower. If you chose cold at 8th level, you could over come fire by 10 and cold by 5, or fire by 5 and cold by 10.
Spell Secrets: At 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, you learn a new way to alter your elemental blast. These are called spell secrets and once learned, they cannot be unlearned. Unless otherwise noted, you cannot learn the same spell secret more than once.
Chain Blast: You can alter your single target Elemental Blast so that after it hits the first target, it reaches out and strikes a number of secondary targets equal to 1 per point of Int Mod you possess. You must succeed on a touch attack per target and each secondary target must be within 30 ft of at least one other target. You can use this a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your class level.
Requires: class level 6+
Accurate Blast:
Your Elemental Blast ability gains a +2 to hit or increases the Reflex Save DC by 2.
Transdimensional Blast:
Your Elemental Blast deals full damage to incorporeal creatures. You can use this a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your class level.
Requires: class level 6+
Empower Blast:
Your Elemental blast deals 50% more damage. You can use this ability once per day per 4 class levels you possess
Requires: Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks
Quicken Blast:
You can use your Elemental Blast as a Swift Action. You can use this ability once per day per 4 class levels you possess
Requires: class level 10+
Elemental Wall:
You can use your elemental blast to create a wall of energy. This functions as a wall of fire, except that the damage and save is equal to that of your AoE elemental blast and it can be acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to you class level.
Requirements: class level 10+
Shape Blast:
You can turn the AoE version of your elemental blast into a cone or a line. The cone has a length equal to the radius of the elemental blast + 5ft. the length of the line is equal to 2 X the radius of the elemental blast +10 ft.
Elemental Preference
Choose one energy type, acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Add 1/2 your class level to the damage of your elemental blast when you make it that element. You may choose this ability more than once, each time it must apply to a different energy type.
Sonic Secrets:
You may have your elemental blast deal sonic damage a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your class level. The d8s of your elemental blast become d6s when you make it sonic damage.
Elemental Resistance:
You may alter your elemental blast so that it creates a protective barrier around the creature struck. This grants the target energy resistance 5 per d8 of damage you would normally do. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your class level.
I saw one variant of the warmage that allowed them to pick a non-evocation spell for their Advanced Learning class feature, but it raised the spell by 1 level. So, charm monster would be 2nd level, see invisiblity would be 3rd level, dispel magic would be 4th level, greater invisiblity would be 5th level, teleport would be 6th level, etc. etc. It seemed like a fairly balanced way to add some versatility to the warmage.
That was an option from Player's Handbook 2. That book included various options for existing classes, much like PF's Advanced Player's Guide.
I did a warmage conversion a year ago+, that you might find interesting. Use or don't use as you wish. It's in the Pathfinder Conversion folder, the Ninja to Wu Jen conversion file.