the master chymist prestige class allows for a different alignment.
assume that new alignment for the characters split personality is an evil one.
so, could the chymist take a level (or levels) in assassin?
What if the main ID of the character is not evil, could the character still benefit from the assassin skills, etc when not in mutagenic mode?
would it be a half level?
or a loop hole?
Our player is a Inquistor/Alchemist who will eventually want to take master chymist.
I can really see a few levels of assassin working with this character (and you hardly if ever seen a player with this class) so it would be fun to run with it.
The Inquisitors main alignment is CN, deity is calistria (i think or maybe its desna), the chymist alignment would most likely be CE.
but might be NE.
looking for input and ideas.
I'd allow this character to get assassin levels, but he could not use any assassin class abilities while the original personality's in charge.
I'd allow this character to get assassin levels, but he could not use any assassin class abilities while the original personality's in charge.
so the character couldnt use an entire class level(s) unless it used it's mutagen or mutate ability?
im not looking at it right now, does an assassin loose any abilities if it changes alignment (like a paladin or barbarian) or just cant gain any more levels?
If i had a rogue say, who had a helm of opposite alignment, became evil, took some levels of assassin as a result and later on down the line, was freed of the helm, and returned to original alignment, well what would happen to those assassin levels?
as an inquisitor as well, what if said master chymist only used the assassin abilities on monsters etc? as the alignment would prevent him form assassinating say sentient human-like races?
its a tough one...
I'd allow this character to get assassin levels, but he could not use any assassin class abilities while the original personality's in charge.so the character couldnt use an entire class level(s) unless it used it's mutagen or mutate ability?
im not looking at it right now, does an assassin loose any abilities if it changes alignment (like a paladin or barbarian) or just cant gain any more levels?
If i had a rogue say, who had a helm of opposite alignment, became evil, took some levels of assassin as a result and later on down the line, was freed of the helm, and returned to original alignment, well what would happen to those assassin levels?
as an inquisitor as well, what if said master chymist only used the assassin abilities on monsters etc? as the alignment would prevent him form assassinating say sentient human-like races?
its a tough one...
First off I love the idea secondly here is what I would do.
Have the abilities from the assassin bleed over. As if the character didn't even realize how he came upon the new knowledge or the abilities.
For instance:
Jackal Johnny the assassin beast with 2 levels in assassin.
Sneak attack bleeds over (on accident ;)) and the original character just feels surprised by his new abilities.
skills points the same.
Any action that directly conflicts with the inquisitors alignment (such as if death attack were against his deity or something) he would restrict himself from using it but could claim (again pretend) that the beast inside him had one and thus he used it to kill someone his beast inside would have killed.
That way he essentially gets all the abilities, there is no real penalty, and it calls for some really good role playing.
just my 2 cents.
I like the idea, truly, im just having a hard time trying to figure out why a CN inquisitor/alchemist (who already uses poison as part of being an alchemist) would have trouble using sneak attack or death attacks on monstrous humanoids etc...or really on people!!
calistria is already a god of trickery.... but not murder...hmmm thinking out loud here.
see poison use is already there, because of alchemist. So its really down to the whole death attack thing (plenty of non evil rogues use sneak attack).
Maybe he just doesnt have access to death attack (or similar abilites) unless hes jackal johnny? It's like he's capable of it, but doesnt know he is.
in the movie league of extraordinary gentlemen, they way they portrayed jekyl and hyde. Jekyl knew what hide could do but was bothering/haunted by the thought of it.
This character isnt necessarily principled to begin with, a more opposite alignment (like NG) would be easier to make a ruling on..... CN is such a tough alignment to begin with.
oookay so i stared at it for five minutes.
The death attack is really what is in question.
and it states toward the bottom (this is what stood out) "...possibly either paralyzing or killing the victim. (assassins choice)" he can't choose if hes unaware he can even do it, so that would be in mutant form only. similar i think if the character were lawful, and his alter ego where chaotic and he had a level in barbarian, he could only rage while in mutant form...
i like that, think ill go with it.
I think you keep Base attack bonuses, saves, and hitdice/points. Everything else doesn't work.
"calistria is already a god of trickery.... but not murder...hmmm thinking out loud here."
Well, murder can be a really good trick to play on someone... Death is only a small part of the grand game of reality, after all ;-)
Alchemyst use death attack to kill the king's mage. "Tricked you!"
I think you keep Base attack bonuses, saves, and hitdice/points. Everything else doesn't work.
well all his class skills (except for linguist) an inquisitor/alchemist already has.
the only weapon proficiency to be picked up by assassin is short sword, that could be debatable: either being surprised at the knowledge he can use a short sword, or not having the proficiency at all unless in mutant form...
armor the inquisitor already has. so then with your argument we are down to sneak attack and death attack.
as previously mentioned above, sneak attack could be one of those circumstances where it works without the characters knowledge (extra dice while flanking a foe, for example) and it certainly isnt out of the range of the characters normal alignment....
later on, things like uncanny dodge, or hidden weapon? (which hes unlike to take 4 or more levels of assassin being he isnt in that personality THAT much)
Id tend to say uncanny dodge is unconscious.
the mutant form isnt precluded from accessing the inquisitors spells (unless there is an alignment issue)
so... id say whats good for the goose is good for the mutant... the only thing that is preventative alignment wise in the assassin class is the death attack...
so mutant cant cast good desciptor spells and the normal chymist cant death attack?
anyone disagree?
I think you keep Base attack bonuses, saves, and hitdice/points. Everything else doesn't work.
what about being able to spend a hero point to access the "forbidden features" in an appropriate setting (like 1 hero point to use sneak attack or death attack when not in mutant form?)
I think you keep Base attack bonuses, saves, and hitdice/points. Everything else doesn't work.well all his class skills (except for linguist) an inquisitor/alchemist already has.
the only weapon proficiency to be picked up by assassin is short sword, that could be debatable: either being surprised at the knowledge he can use a short sword, or not having the proficiency at all unless in mutant form...
armor the inquisitor already has. so then with your argument we are down to sneak attack and death attack.
as previously mentioned above, sneak attack could be one of those circumstances where it works without the characters knowledge (extra dice while flanking a foe, for example) and it certainly isnt out of the range of the characters normal alignment....
later on, things like uncanny dodge, or hidden weapon? (which hes unlike to take 4 or more levels of assassin being he isnt in that personality THAT much)
Id tend to say uncanny dodge is unconscious.
the mutant form isnt precluded from accessing the inquisitors spells (unless there is an alignment issue)
so... id say whats good for the goose is good for the mutant... the only thing that is preventative alignment wise in the assassin class is the death attack...so mutant cant cast good desciptor spells and the normal chymist cant death attack?
anyone disagree?
pretty on board.
once your alternate form has become and assassin, all those ideas above seem reasonable.
However, becoming an assassin might mean a real quest that lasts days, and your alternate form is normally not on for that long. How will you main personality react when he wakes up in an assassins guild hall?
My biggest problem, as a GM, would be to allow a "minor" personality enough free time to train to become a prestigeclass.
Another idea that might too easily become abused is: when you lvl up your personalities get different class-lvls. When master chemist you might have a lvl more in inquisitor, and when beast, you have a lvl in assassin.
But as I said, if you don't work very closely with your GM, he will likely not allow it, because it's too easily abused.
Why not just allow him to take up a few assassin levels "for the cause"? He might get the training from a secretive religious order who defends the faith, or a disillusioned assassin who's had an alignment change and sees an opportunity to do some good with his usually evil skills.
The funny thing (almost hillarious really) about assassins is that they only need to be evil to become assassins, there's no need to be all dark and emo and ebul when you've got your first level. There's no restrictions that make you lose your "powers", so if your friends pop a "helm of opposite alignment" on you, there only effect on your class is ... well, nothing.
Keeping that in mind. The assassin probably has to be evil because of the requirement to "kill someone just to become an assassin". But if you replace that requirement with something else, such as "must accept a gease to serve the crown for x years", or "must be loyal to x god/goddess and swear an oath of x at his/her alter", you will have a person who doesn't kill for money, but for his convictions or the greater good of a nation.
So there's really no reason why he has to go through all this "Mr. Hyde would like to learn how to stab faces, but the doctor isn't really too happy about it" stuff. Just hit him with a religious order and some oaths ;)
You are missing the whole fun of it, and the point of what he's trying to do though I think.
It would be a blast to play someone who's left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.
Sure, when you start out, the duration isn't all that great.. but slowly, the Killer inside sneaks out more and more often and for greater and greater durations.. I could see it forsaking weapons entirely for the claw/claw/bite of the Feral discovery and all the bonuses the Chymist grants to that.
Sure, he may accidentally SA something and just think he got in a lucky shot- but the real fun would be playing two relatively different characters who's abilities only slightly bleed over. The rather harsh penalty of course being that all the special abilities for the Inquisitor don't improve from Assassin and vice versa. Everything isn't about power though, afterall. It sounds like a very fun thing.
I imagine the character would eventually begin to think they had lycanthropy. (blacks out for hours at a stretch, wakes up with blood on his face/hands/body, etc. classic signs of having been bitten and such).
Very nice RP.
-S
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While I dig the flavour..
...does something that can have, conservatively..
..a Str of 30, claws and teeth doing, what, 2d6x2(+14ish) 3d6(+14ish) - all at roughly +22 to hit at.. what, say 14th level (7th Alch 7th Master Chymist)..
..*NEED* assassins levels to be an assassin?
O_o I'd sign him up to the guild based on natural talent!
(..and you could still RP the alchemist not knowing that his alter-ego is a killer for hire.)
Sure but then the alter ego wouldn't have all the fun spells.
"But it Couldn't have been me! I can't CAST spells!"
;p
-S
I'd allow this character to get assassin levels, but he could not use any assassin class abilities while the original personality's in charge.so the character couldnt use an entire class level(s) unless it used it's mutagen or mutate ability?
Exactly. If you don't like it, don't try to cheat ;-P
Non-evil players don't become assassins. The player tries to circumvent that with another PrC that gives him a second alignment so he can become evil, too.
I can see two reasons for this:
1). Exploitation of loopholes. In this case, I as the GM reserve the right to screw him over big time.
2). He tries to add more flavour to the whole dual personality thing by doing something only one of the personalities would ever consider. In that case, the non-evil personality would probably not know about this ruthless killer training and thus not use it.
im not looking at it right now, does an assassin loose any abilities if it changes alignment (like a paladin or barbarian) or just cant gain any more levels?
I don't have to look, because the way I said above is what would happen in my game.
(And by the way, it's "lose", not "loose". Lose is the opposite of gain or win, while loose is the opposite of tighten)
If i had a rogue say, who had a helm of opposite alignment, became evil, took some levels of assassin as a result and later on down the line, was freed of the helm, and returned to original alignment, well what would happen to those assassin levels?
They would be there, but mostly wasted. Being now of good alignment (the helm only makes you evil if you were good before), the character would totally not want to use these abilities!
I'd allow a form of atonement, where the levels are lost and converted for something else.
what if said master chymist only used the assassin abilities on monsters etc? as the alignment would prevent him form assassinating say sentient human-like races?
Note that the class doesn't say "Must be evil unless you only use it on monsters."
These abilities are considered to be evil no matter what.
In my game, if you really wanted to play an assassin without being evil, you'd be much better served by talking to me (the GM) and finding a solution by working with me instead of trying to go around me. That never works. The rules might have loopholes, but I don't. I do have a Stick of Pain.
The traditional punishment for trying to circumvent the rules while I am the GM is to be torn apart by wild tortoises - not a quick death!
"calistria is already a god of trickery.... but not murder...hmmm thinking out loud here."
Well, murder can be a really good trick to play on someone... Death is only a small part of the grand game of reality, after all ;-)
Alchemyst use death attack to kill the king's mage. "Tricked you!"
My client, hereafter referred to as Norgorber, asked me to sternly remind you that there is a Cease and Desist (or Cease to Exist) out against the culprit, hereafter referred to as Calistria, to get within 2 planes of his Portfolio, which is Murder.
The Divine Laws, to which both parties agreed to, among others, clearly state that Murder is separate from Trickery, and that Murder is in sole custody of my client.
Further transgressions will result in the agreed-upon penalty, namely the murder of all her clerics.
Alignment restrictions on an Assassin class in a world where the "good guys" routinely murder entire hordes of sentient beings, often by surprise and ambush in these creatures' own homes, is a ludicrous idea. I always throw that alignment requirement out. Same with the elf/half-elf requirement on Arcane Archer.
If Assassin is to eeeeeevil sounding, just make a class called the Avenger that has all the same abilities but requires a non-evil alignment and that you go kill something evil for no other reason than to rid the world of something evil.
Alignment restrictions on an Assassin class in a world where the "good guys" routinely murder entire hordes of sentient beings
They don't "murder" them. If they're actual good guys they defend their homeland, church and/or people against aggressors. They're basically soldiers.
And I think we should totally avoid any discussions going anywhere near "soldiers are murderers".
The big point about the assassin, is that they don't just kill. They murder, for no other reason than someone wants them murdered. Murdered as in unlawful killing, as opposed to lawful execution or killing, like people who commit crimes and get the death penalty, or enemies that threaten king and country and are made war upon.
While many play it fast-and-loose, actually murdering enemies, especially innocents, is still an evil act in Pathfinder.
And that's what the assassin does. They murder innocent people, committing an actual crime in the process.
It's supposed to be separate from those who kill with a lawful and/or sanctioned purpose.
Beyond that, the assassin PrC isn't that necessary to be an assassin (the occupation), anyway.
It's one of the big errors many people make: They think they need levels in the assassin class to call themselves assassins. You don't need that. You can get by just fine with rogues (and you don't even need that - anyone can hire himself out to kill people on contract, even barbarians. Well, maybe not paladins, at least not as what is usually called an assassin in modern fantasy)
So, at least for me, the assassin PrC has always been a rather special case: It is taken when someone not just wants the special abilities the class grants, but wants to be someone who murders innocent people illegally for money.
For everything else, like killing because your belief, your country, or yourself tells you to, there are all the other classes, and they can manage well enough.
For example, a combat-oriented rogue (maybe with some levels in other classes, like ranger, fighter, or something else), getting the right rogue talents (and maybe the right archetype(s)) and abilities can do the silent killer part rather well.
Some of these assassin abilities are debatable, anyway. Biggest example: The quiet death ability. I would have allowed any character to attempt to silently kill an enemy without that ability. Kill it while it is flat-footed and it will not have had a chance to raise the alarm. Maybe do some sort of skill check (Stealth works well), or maybe accept an attack penalty, and you can make the attack(s) in a way that prevents him from making any sound. Sneak up from behind, do a sneak attack by cutting his throat (hard to make sounds with a cut throat), and catch the body to avoid it from falling over noisily.
Well, strictly speaking, there aren't any rules regarding Ex-Assassins, meaning that regardless of an alignment shift, you can keep any abilities you might have gained. However, the hitch here is that you have to roleplay the situation effectively in order to make it make sense (i.e. a good character will be unlikely to use his former talents as an assassin).
I'd say that the "more good" personality should lose access to any of the Assassin's abilities that involve inflicting direct harm on his opponents, such as Death Attack and Quiet Death. Anything that would require the efficient, malicious mindset of a trained killer.
However, abilities that can be passed off as inherited assassin reflexes or instincts, such as Improved Uncanny Dodge and Hide In Plain Sight, should still be usable, since neither necessarily has to be used to kill somebody.
On top of all of that, the class' prerequisites say you have to be Evil, but the class description says that Neutral characters can also be assassins, but tend to get pushed towards evil. If the Inquisitor side likes the talents his mutated personality possesses, perhaps he could shift to an evil alignment and accept the abilities, allowing him to use them in either form.
This might overcomplicate things a little, but it'd be quite the interesting story mechanic.