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Kicking around an idea on reducing MAD for certain characters. One such thing I want to do is remove the requirement for a feat to allow a character to use something besides Str on attack rolls.
STR: Used with two-handed and some one-handed weapons. Can be used on thrown weapons.
DEX: Used with light and some one-handed weapons. Used with all ranged weapons.
WIS: Monk class feature allows use on all weapons character is proficient with, limited by monk level. (e.g. 3rd level monk with 18 Wis adds +3 to attack rolls until he reaches 4th level, then can use his full bonus.) May also add to damage rolls.
Special: No mixing of ability score bonuses. The character must choose to use one or the other when attacking.
This is a very rough draft, so please point out flaws.
What about someone using a one handed and a light weapon?
Other than that it seems reasonable. The monk point is something i do agree with (hitting in weak points rather than trying to over power or slip through defences).
If it is how you would like to rule it then you should try it out. The only way you can know if it is massively unbalanced is by testing it out.
I might consider the equivalent free 'finesse' to be something only for fighters and certain races (i'm thinking elves)
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Acknowledged, kyrt, but hopefully the fact he doesn't need to spend points on STR allows him to invest in a high DEX. Thus he uses DEX on his unarmed strikes and light weapons, while building his WIS up over levels and getting progressively more benefit from his WIS. The cap is to prevent clerics from dipping a level and getting full WIS to attack and damage.
What about someone using a one handed and a light weapon?
Choose STR or DEX when you make the attack roll. Honestly, I might allow all one-handed weapons to be used with either STR or DEX. Thus, two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons wielded in two hands are the only melee weapons that must use STR. And lets face it, two-handers have high STR in nearly all cases.
I might consider the equivalent free 'finesse' to be something only for fighters and certain races (i'm thinking elves)
I'd be fine with limiting the ability to choose to martial classes, or certain martial classes. That would definitely solve the problem of clerics dipping monk.
However, like the human sorcerer favored class ability from the APG, only letting certain races have it means you punish those who want to play an organic character, and those who build stats first suddenly start using that race a lot more than before.
I did not suggest that ONLY certain races get it. Just that some got it as a bonus whether they were a martial class or not. Just like any class feature. Maybe add it to the list of APG alternates.
I suppose for example there should be more dextrous light weapon weilding duelist or duel wielding elves than dwarves for example.
Just like you would expect more dwarves with two handed axes or hammers.
But some people are uncomfortable with traditional stereotypes and that makes sense. But the games will never be 100% equal. There will always be less halfling fighters than human ones for example. It is the way the rules are currently written.
Acknowledged, kyrt, but hopefully the fact he doesn't need to spend points on STR allows him to invest in a high DEX. Thus he uses DEX on his unarmed strikes and light weapons, while building his WIS up over levels and getting progressively more benefit from his WIS. The cap is to prevent clerics from dipping a level and getting full WIS to attack and damage.
Good point about dip insulation.
Originally, I was thinking along the lines of a class feature gained at level 4 or above where the monk's growing proficiency with his class allows him to substitute Wisdom for Strength and/or Dexterity in attacking, sorta like a more powerful (i.e. permanent and passive) version of Ki Diversity: Zen Combatant.
Of course, holding this out for later levels rather than just giving it to the monk at level 1 would be a sop to the monk-haters who somehow have little empathy for MAD classes. But it's also fluffy. After all, a monk "discovers" ki power at level 4.
If you want to make it fit within the existing mechanic then since a monk can passively sustain magical/lawful/adamantine fists by just keeping 1 ki point in his pool, then maybe allocating 1 or 2 ki points to passively sustain Zen Combat (Wis for Str/Dex) suggests that the monk is fuelling his improved combat through his supernatural powers. This fits with the general class "narrative" of ever greater perfection through supernatural powers.
Level X - Insightful Combatant (Su): Your prowess at channelling ki to enhance your combat powers has deepened. Reserving one point of ki in your ki pool now allows you to use your Wisdom score in place of either your Strength or Dexterity when attacking. Any Wisdom ability bonuses apply to both attack and damage rolls.
Frankly, and this is a little off-topic, I would also argue for monks being able to reserve, or spend, another ki point in their pool at higher levels in order for their fists to emulate better DR. Perhaps purchased through a feat. This would avoid the inelegant scene of monks having to resort to amulets and brass knuckles in order to achieve this.
Oh, as a side observation, you do realise that eliminating or reducing MAD was the path tread by 4e? Basically, each class or class build in 4e is dependent upon two ability scores, but they have two build options resting on one core class ability and one of two secondary abilities.
Not necessarily a bad thing, but then prepare for massive dump statting:
Human Monk (15-point build)
Str 7
Dex 15
Con 15
Int 7
Wis 17 (19)
Cha 7
Carrying capacity. Mages can get away with dumping strength, but most monk concepts want to be able to drag their friends out of the fire if necessary. I can't think of any monk I would ever play that would dump Strength. Also, monks have skills, they generally want to be able to purchase them. I can not think of ANY monk concept that would dump both strength and int.
Not necessarily a bad thing, but then prepare for massive dump statting:Human Monk (15-point build)
Str 7
Dex 15
Con 15
Int 7
Wis 17 (19)
Cha 7
I should've added a humorous smiley face to my post. Just wanted to illustrate an extreme example. :P
More realistically:
Human Monk (15-point build)
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 17 (19)
Cha 7
Suggestion: Monks can use wisdom for attack rolls at first level, and gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to monk level or wisdom modifier, whichever is lower (strength still applies to damage.)
Hmmm, interesting. But would a Str+Wis-based monk that gets both Wis and Str bonuses to damage be OP? This is like a two-feat ability. Or perhaps its just a build option to be weighed against the Dex+Wis-based monk.
Kicking around an idea on reducing MAD for certain characters. One such thing I want to do is remove the requirement for a feat to allow a character to use something besides Str on attack rolls.
STR: Used with two-handed and some one-handed weapons. Can be used on thrown weapons.
DEX: Used with light and some one-handed weapons. Used with all ranged weapons.
WIS: Monk class feature allows use on all weapons character is proficient with, limited by monk level. (e.g. 3rd level monk with 18 Wis adds +3 to attack rolls until he reaches 4th level, then can use his full bonus.) May also add to damage rolls.
Special: No mixing of ability score bonuses. The character must choose to use one or the other when attacking.
This is a very rough draft, so please point out flaws.
I'm not going to get into the monk thing too much, other than to say I like the idea.
More to my point, I use a "hidden" stat I call precision to determine attack bonus. It's simply the average of a character's Str and Dex mods, rounded down. In addition to the Weapon Finesse feat, I have one called Weapon Brutality that allows using just Str bonus on attacks with 2H weapons (plus a few others.. like how Finesse works on some non-light weapons). It's similar to your idea, but keeps the feat requirement. It also doesn't mean all that much at early levels if Str and Dex are equal or close in numbers.
Kicking around an idea on reducing MAD for certain characters. One such thing I want to do is remove the requirement for a feat to allow a character to use something besides Str on attack rolls.
STR: Used with two-handed and some one-handed weapons. Can be used on thrown weapons.
DEX: Used with light and some one-handed weapons. Used with all ranged weapons.
WIS: Monk class feature allows use on all weapons character is proficient with, limited by monk level. (e.g. 3rd level monk with 18 Wis adds +3 to attack rolls until he reaches 4th level, then can use his full bonus.) May also add to damage rolls.
Special: No mixing of ability score bonuses. The character must choose to use one or the other when attacking.
This is a very rough draft, so please point out flaws.
How about this:
At character creation, each character chooses whether or not they will fight primarily with power and use Strength (the default) or with finesse and use Dexterity. Once determined, it cannot be changed (but Weapon Finesse is still available).
Choosing the default Strength, apply everything as normal.
Choosing Finesse, you add your Dexterity modifier to all melee attack and damage rolls. However, you can only do so with light melee weapons or weapons that are able to be used with finesse (rapiers, elven curve blades, unarmed strikes, etc.). When using other weapons however, you must use Strength to wield them properly. You cannot use these benefits if you carry more than a light load.
Ranged weapons use Dex to hit and Strength for damage, no exceptions. I'd even consider giving crossbows the option of obtaining a Strength rating just like bows and without the minimum Strength score (or maybe half the minimum that would be required) to operate properly because it is mechanically loaded (but maybe cap it at +4 or +5). With so many editions, I don't know why this hasn't been done yet honestly.
Monks have a class feature that allows them to add their Wisdom modifier to a lot of things: AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, CMB, CMD, all saving throws, initiative, and all Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks. Call it mind over matter or something. They can only use this ability if they wear no armor and are carrying no more than a light load. The amount of their Wisdom bonus that they can add to the listed things cannot exceed their monk level (so a monk with a 18 Wisdom could not add his full modifier to all of the above until 4th level).
EDIT: basically, it's giving Weapon Finesse out for free to those who want it. I don't think that's a bad idea, since Strength still is overall better due to versatility and they can't totally dump Strength due to the light load restriction. Heck, wizards might even hit in melee once in a while.
Yeah, pretty much. It's a good foundation.
On monks, making Wisdom the primary resource to fuel everything they need to do in combat is a good way to go I think. Then Str, Dex, and Con become more flavor than necessities.
Since this is homebrew (right?), then shouldn't one of the direct options be to review BAB progression?
Monks are at a mid-way point between full and 3/4 BAB due to Pathfinder's changes to FoB from 3.5.
In other forums people have argued that the monk's 3/4 BAB is a legacy artifact from 2e.
What other classes besides monk do you consider to be MAD, and can their attack issues be fixed satisfactorily with BAB revision?
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You're absolutely correct about the BAB thing, and I have bumped monks to Full BAB/d10 HD in my games.
As for other MAD classes, I was mostly thinking of Dex-based melee characters. Having to spend points on Str and Dex both to improve attack and damage spreads them thin on ability scores usually. Since I'm including fighters and rangers in this, there are no adjustments to make to BAB.
You're absolutely correct about the BAB thing, and I have bumped monks to Full BAB/d10 HD in my games.
As for other MAD classes, I was mostly thinking of Dex-based melee characters. Having to spend points on Str and Dex both to improve attack and damage spreads them thin on ability scores usually. Since I'm including fighters and rangers in this, there are no adjustments to make to BAB.
Yeah, well there's the thing about the phantasy physics in the D20 system (prior to 4e). It's always been predicated on physical strength (and weapon type) being the principal determinant of damage caused, rather than accuracy-based contributions to damage.
I think what you're basically trying to do is to apply some real world logic/common sense to a system that's originally based on wargaming abstractions.
Armor in D20 simply makes you harder to hit rather than reducing the amount of damage you suffer. It is functionally similar to being agile enough to avoid being hit. That may be unsatisfying for some.
I know there were some 3.5 supplements that opened up DR for regular armor. You might want to adopt that. This would mean it might be easier to hit a heavily armored entity, but hard to damage them. Although that means more book-keeping since if you overcome armor's DR that implies damage to the armor and a repair mechanic. Right now you can annihilate an enemy and salvage their armor undamaged.
A dextrous warrior may be able to hit an enemy, but how do they overcome steel plating without relying on physical power to 'punch through' defenses? Not conceding damage bonuses to non-Strength abilities is one route.
If you want to stick to the conventional phantasy physics of D20 though, other issues open up.
You do have a tough time with balance though. How to ensure a Dex-based fighter isn't overpowered if they can get AC, to hit, and bonus damage from just one ability? Why would anyone ever take more than 13 Strength (unless they wanted to tank with heavy armor)?
Generally, the rules haven't conceded anything beyond attack roll bonuses to non-Strength abilities (Weapon Finesse, etc.).
However, it is interesting to note that in Pathfinder they have begun to "concede" ground with the magic property of Guided and the Ki Diversity feat. Both let Wisdom contribute for attack rolls AND damage.
Arguably, allowing wisdom to enhance damage is fine for unarmed attacks when a monk's fist counts as "magic" for penetration after level 4 (due to ki strike).
So, maybe let ki strike also allow damage bonuses to be applied from Wisdom, or even Dexterity.
I hate to sound like a n00b, but what the smell is MAD?
Most stuff I can puzzle out of context but this one is baffling me :)
Thanks
GNOME
As for other MAD classes, I was mostly thinking of Dex-based melee characters. Having to spend points on Str and Dex both to improve attack and damage spreads them thin on ability scores usually. Since I'm including fighters and rangers in this, there are no adjustments to make to BAB.
Hey there,
I may have found a partial solution for you within the non-core publications. The feat in question is Piranha Strike, basically Power Attack for users of Weapon Finesse, i.e. Dex-based characters:
Piranha Strike (Combat)
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
Granted, its not the same as substituting X attribute for Strength damage, but it is nice and doesn't require you to have Str 13 for Power Attack. In fact, you don't even need Dex to purchase Weapon Finesse.
Piranha Strike (Combat)
I actually think this makes a nice ADDITION to TOZ's suggestion it allows for even more parity DPR wise with TWF and 2HD'er martial types.
OP you know from the multiple Monk threads i like the wisdom option even if you have some sort of only with "monk weapons and unarmed strikes", "only when not wearing armor" restriction to the wisdom usage, or allow it to apply more broadly. Perhaps allowing the full to hit at level 1 and the damage to scale up by level?
Love the Dex idea, it is in all honesty, a minor learning curve increase for a totally new player but not a major impediment and play wise is smooth mechanic. Fitting into the existing paradigm.