First off, yes I know CR isn't a foolproof method, but since the templates include a CR tag I'd like to know what was the design thought behind this:
The common skeleton loses most class abilities, gains a few combat abilities, but generally becomes far, far weaker than the original.
Due to this, their CR is based on their HD, as the difficulty depends on just how many skeleton HD they have rather than how strong those HD are (because they're equally strong due to being undead HD without abilities).
The skeletal champion retains, from what I've understood correctly, most class abilities that the base creature has, making it a far more dangerous creature. The reason I read it as they retaining abilities is that the template is added to the base creature, not to a skeleton, and the times where you use regular skeleton statistics (natural armor for example) it specifically says so.
However, the skeletal champion's CR is based on the skeleton CR, which means that there'll be an incredible disparity in power between an mastodon skeletal champion (CR7) and a 14th level human sorcerer skeletal champion (CR7).
Have I misunderstood anything of this, is it supposed to lose special abilities or is maybe the skeletal champion CR based on the base creatures rather than the skeleton CR, which means it's just a typo in the SRD? It seems too specific to be a typo, but waddayaknow
One of the requirements for a creature to become a skeleton champion is to have an intelligence of 3 or higher, thus excluding all animals with their lowly 2 INT score. Skeleton champions are, for the most part, skeletons with class levels.
Oh, I didn't see that. Anyway, there's lots of monsters with much more HD than CR while classed characters mostly DO have almost as high CR as HD.
The template is applied to whatever it was before it was a skeletal champion. Don't think fighter to skeleton to skeletal champion, think Fighter to Skeletal Champion- +1CR to whatever CR that fighter was.
I know it goes base creature to skeletal champion directly, that's why it gets to keep it's class features and other special abilities. However, it sometimes refer to the skeleton template, and in the case of setting the CR, this is what the PFSRD says:
"CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD."
Since a 14th level fighter has 14 HD, and a normal skeleton with 14 HD has CR6, a skeletal champion fighter should have CR6 + 1 = 7. 7 CR seems awfully low, as it doesn't get many penalties (vulnerability to certain magics and hit points of a dump stat (which isn't a problem for many classes)).
It would make mince meat out of any other CR7 creature, and probably up to CR 10 or 11 at least. It seems far off the charts.
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After rereading it a bunch, it seems to me that the CR formula here is only for determining the starting challenge rating using the racial HD. Then you add on any CR derived from class levels.
So if the base creature was a 14th level human fighter, he would have 2 racial hit dice that he gained for becoming a skeleton champion. That's CR 1 + 1. Then add on the CR for his class levels, which is 14. So it's 1 + 1 + 14 = CR 16, which I think makes more sense for a fighter who got a bunch of immunities slapped on top of him.
If you were to calculate it for a creature that had racial hit dice to begin with, such as a 2nd level centaur paladin, he would have 6 racial HD(4 from centaur, 2 from skeleton champion). That's 3 + 1 + 2 = CR 6, although you might want to lower that by 1 since he would now be a fallen paladin after changing his alignment to evil.
That's 3 + 1 + 2 = CR 6, although you might want to lower that by 1 since he would now be a fallen paladin after changing his alignment to evil.
Unless he was an Anti-Paladin to begin with.
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That's 3 + 1 + 2 = CR 6, although you might want to lower that by 1 since he would now be a fallen paladin after changing his alignment to evil.Unless he was an Anti-Paladin to begin with.
What self respecting, chaotic-evil necromancer wouldn't delight at chance to pervert some holier-than-thou paladin's corpse?
Skeletal Champion's CR is easily broken. Try a Skeletal Champion Ancient White Dragon on for size; its CR goes from 15 to 9.
Skeletal Champion's CR is easily broken. Try a Skeletal Champion Ancient White Dragon on for size; its CR goes from 15 to 9.Well that's because... uh... it can't fly anymore! That's it!
Unless, of course, it takes fly as one of its 3rd level spells known ;)
<@><@> peeks in
Ekkk to many rules with Racial HD!
Skeletal Champion's CR is easily broken. Try a Skeletal Champion Ancient White Dragon on for size; its CR goes from 15 to 9.
Well, to be fair, it's AC drops from 37 to 11, which I guess matters somewhat. If you had an army of peasants armed with crossbows with burning bolts, that is.
Skeletal Champion's CR is easily broken. Try a Skeletal Champion Ancient White Dragon on for size; its CR goes from 15 to 9.Well, to be fair, it's AC drops from 37 to 11, which I guess matters somewhat. If you had an army of peasants armed with crossbows with burning bolts, that is.
AC 12, thank you very much! (+2 dex, so it's +3 natural, +1 dex, -2 size)
And yeah, the natural armor loss and the loss of natural flight are the two big drawbacks. However, its offensive capabilities are mostly untouched; it's certainly well above the offensive abilities of any other CR 9 in the book.
I agree with Alexander Kilcoyne.
The Skeletal Champion template is a really powerful one and it raises CR by +2. A 14th human sorcerer has CR 13, with this template her CR goes to 15.(undead traits, charisma mod to hp - yes dumb constitution, darkvision, immunity to cold, and +2 str & dex, and +2 d8 HD)
Also, the same sorcerer with just the skeleton template has CR 9 and not 6 as Stringburka said. The table in p.250 of the Beastiary -as many other thing in Pathfinder- is a bad copy-paste from 3.5 MM p.226
As for Zurai, yes you are right but take into consideration that Dragons are the best creatures in the game by stats/abilities/saves/bab/HD and applying to them the skeleton, skeletal champion template or generally turning them into undead would be OP if no penalties were occuring. Yes their armor class drops by a very high amount as does their Hit Points(undeads got nerfed a lot in pathfinder, fine from me they where OP) but they gain undead immunities and thats a pretty nice thing i think. If you want your Ancient's White Dragon AC to remain the same apply the Lich tempate :D (my favorite dragonlich)
Generally, speaking as DM i suggest that before applying templates look at the abilities the template offers to understand an realise the real CR.
Finally i suggest to apply skeletal champion template to martial classes where it really shines. Especially to an evil paladin or with the APG to the anti-paladin
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Also, the same sorcerer with just the skeleton template has CR 9 and not 6 as Stringburka said. The table in p.250 of the Beastiary -as many other thing in Pathfinder- is a bad copy-paste from 3.5 MM p.226
If a 14th level human sorcerer was turned into a normal skeleton, it would have a CR of 1/3, since it lost all class HD and now only has 1 HD for being a skeleton.
I agree with Alexander Kilcoyne.
The Skeletal Champion template is a really powerful one and it raises CR by +2. A 14th human sorcerer has CR 13, with this template her CR goes to 15.(undead traits, charisma mod to hp - yes dumb constitution, darkvision, immunity to cold, and +2 str & dex, and +2 d8 HD)
Eh, for a sorcerer I agree that it's very, very powerful due to charisma being a prime stat for a sorcerer, but they are kind of the exception seeing as how charisma is the most common dump stat and usually isn't too high in monsters either. CR+1 or CR equal I could see though.
Basically, it's great for abilitybased monsters but kinda "meh" for anything with Cha < Con and/or high natural armor (which tends to go hand in hand).Is the correct table somewhere to be found on the internet? I lost my bestiary some time ago and since I'm poor and rarely use odd monsters I'm being a cheapass and not buying a new until I get a job XD
But yes, of course CR should be set by the end result rather than a template. It's quite easy to make overpowered CR encounters by fiddling with class levels and and templates (2 levels of monk is only 1 cr for example, for all monsters), but this just seemed so off the chart it shouldn't be there at all.
If a 14th level human sorcerer was turned into a normal skeleton, it would have a CR of 1/3, since it lost all class HD and now only has 1 HD for being a skeleton.
Also, the same sorcerer with just the skeleton template has CR 9 and not 6 as Stringburka said. The table in p.250 of the Beastiary -as many other thing in Pathfinder- is a bad copy-paste from 3.5 MM p.226
Slightly OT, but wouldn't that be a really good way to ensure a dead opponent stays dead? When you kill the 15th level evil overlord, just animate him! Even if he's later destroyed and resurrected, he'll just be a 1hd humanoid or whatever.
Waffle_Neutral thats right by RAW. But CR is determined with the stats when the creature becomes skeleton. The drop class HD and treat the skeleton as an one HD creature is for control undead and similar abilities that count HD for their effect to take place. Its a matter of DM and sense of balance he has.
As for sorcerer yes its pretty powerful as it is for paladin, bard, oracle and all charisma-based spellcasters. But even for others think that a warrior can be optimized to have(base stats) : 18 str, 16 dex, 7 con, 10 int, 7 wis, 16 cha = powergaming
The change with racial HD,level adjustment and CR is a bit furstrating. The only way to truly judge a template or something similar is to compare it to something that gives the same or near similar abilities to that. Consult your DM and before applying anything talk how it will work.
Gaining mind-affecting immunity is a God-like ability but again situational (your campaign could be only hack'n'slash with orc barbarians)
but nevertheless its very useful ability and in long term it will benefit a character much more than a creature because tha character will be played again and again (till he dies) for many session while the undead foe will be dead at the end of the battle.
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Waffle_Neutral thats right by RAW. But CR is determined with the stats when the creature becomes skeleton. The drop class HD and treat the skeleton as an one HD creature is for control undead and similar abilities that count HD for their effect to take place. Its a matter of DM and sense of balance he has.
Yes, but a normal skeleton also loses all of his class abilities and pretty much everything that makes him 14th level. Yeah, it would have a high CHA, but with only 1 hit die, would only have about twice as many hit points as the example skeleton from the bestiary. Combine that with low physical stats and you have a high HP skeleton that can't hit anything, and if it does, it wouldn't hurt.
Waffle_Neutral thats right by RAW. But CR is determined with the stats when the creature becomes skeleton. The drop class HD and treat the skeleton as an one HD creature is for control undead and similar abilities that count HD for their effect to take place. Its a matter of DM and sense of balance he has.
I don't agree with that interpretation, though it is technically open for it. The RAW doesn't tell if we are supposed to apply the "CR based on HD" before or after all class levels are dropped. I think it's a fair assumption that RAI, CR should be based on final number of HD.
As for sorcerer yes its pretty powerful as it is for paladin, bard, oracle and all charisma-based spellcasters. But even for others think that a warrior can be optimized to have(base stats) : 18 str, 16 dex, 7 con, 10 int, 7 wis, 16 cha = powergaming
I don't get if you think that's power gaming or if you think it's fair game, but if a certain creature is created as a skeletal champion it wouldn't be that weird. However, they are assumed to have been characters before that and a 7 con fighter won't live long. Yes, for some classes they are powerful, but I think in most cases, a paladin wouldn't have that much higher charisma than constitution (though I'm not a paladin player so I don't know the specifics of optimization there).
Consult your DM and before applying anything talk how it will work.
Oh, I am the DM. Players don't get to create monsters (apart from certain spells) and I'm not light on templates either. At any point a character would become undead, that player should have a reaaally good reasoning for me not to take his sheet and instantly having a really nice NPC with a good hook on the group.
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Slightly OT, but wouldn't that be a really good way to ensure a dead opponent stays dead? When you kill the 15th level evil overlord, just animate him! Even if he's later destroyed and resurrected, he'll just be a 1hd humanoid or whatever.
Haha. That would be a cruel way to keep the big bad from coming back, but I think if he was resurrected, he'd come back with all his class levels and everything restored. I mean, it's not like he'd resurrect as a skeleton.
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I don't get if you think that's power gaming or if you think it's fair game, but if a certain creature is created as a skeletal champion it wouldn't be that weird. However, they are assumed to have been characters before that and a 7 con fighter won't live long. Yes, for some classes they are powerful, but I think in most cases, a paladin wouldn't have that much higher charisma than constitution (though I'm not a paladin player so I don't know the specifics of optimization there).
I would say that not living very long is one of the most common ways one becomes a skeleton.
I would say that not living very long is one of the most common ways one becomes a skeleton.I don't get if you think that's power gaming or if you think it's fair game, but if a certain creature is created as a skeletal champion it wouldn't be that weird. However, they are assumed to have been characters before that and a 7 con fighter won't live long. Yes, for some classes they are powerful, but I think in most cases, a paladin wouldn't have that much higher charisma than constitution (though I'm not a paladin player so I don't know the specifics of optimization there).
Haha <3 Yeah but I think this was talking about a 14th level fighter. Eh, he could on the other hand just have had very very much luck against a group of balors, just to be killed by a hobgoblin bolt afterwards.