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Hi all, I know there have been countless threads regarding TWF and Shields with bits of information spread out everywhere, so I was hoping to collate info into one thread for people to hopefully easily find it.
Sadly, there seems to be a lot of opinions and few firm answers, but hopefully this thread can show the arguements and give a player and DM an idea on what may or may not be justifiable. I myself am about to role a character that uses TWF with Shield and so it is something I have been trying to get my head round.
The questions I have seen around tend to be:
1) If I use a Heavy Shield and a Light Weapon do I get the -2/-2 penalty for TWF?
By RAW the answer is no - when describing Shield Bash it specifically mentions using a shield as an offhand attack, meanwhile the Two Weapon Fighting Combat rules state you only reduce penalties by 2 if you wield a light weapon in your off hand.
There are two arguements against this, one is very much opinion: Statistically there is no reason why you cannot use a light weapon in primary hand to gain the reduction on attack penalty. Normal TWF gives you at best 1d8 and 1d6 (Longsword and shortsword), while a spiked shield and shortsword gives you 1d6 and 1d6 so you are doing less damage and are further penalised by the fact if you only get one attack in a round it is 1d6 instead of 1d8. So in terms of game balance it is not unreasonable to allow this. However, as stated, this is opinion and by RAW it cannot happen.
The other arguement is this: Pathfinder rules were based on 3.5 rules and the description of shield bash was taken from that but it did not take into account the official Wizards response in their FAQ/Errata:
From the official FAQ:
Can a character make a shield bash attack using the
shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand
weapon?
While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand
weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is
holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from
declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course,
that means that any attack you make with your other hand
becomes a secondary weapon.
It is a fair assumption that Paizo merely overlooked this and therefore
by RAI a shortsword and Heavy Shield can avoid the -4 penalties but the Shield must be your primary weapon and if the Wizard FAQ is ever confirmed here then it will be by RAW.
2) Can I LoH with a Heavy Shield and Weapon
Again, by RAW, no as you must have 'a free hand' to do so. However, most DMs would accept that you can self LoH as there should be no need to start rubbing yourself in a battle as that is creepy and merely placing your swordfist against your chest should suffice
3) Can I LoH with a Light Shield and Weapon
Technically your shield hand can be free enough to carry things and therefore should be usable. By RAI you can definately LoH yourself, afterall your shield hand is free and facing you so is easy to place on your chest and arguably by RAW it is also doable for the same reason - if your hand is free enough to carry an item, it is free enough to LoH yourself. Healing others is a bit more debatable, however, and I think this was supported by Paizo somewhere, you can switch your sword to your shield arm in order to perform LoH before then switching it back
4) Can I use a Longsword and a Mithril Heavy Shield at -2/-2 penalty and can I LoH?
This was something I was recently debating with BigNorseWolf. After more reading I have come to the conclusion that by RAW, no you cannot use a longsword (or any 1 handed weapon) with a Heavy Mithril Shield. This is due to this line in the Equipment section of the rulebook:
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed)
So, even though the shield is much lighter, it still counts as a one handed weapon. Personally I disagree with this, but that does not change the rules, however you may find your DM also disagrees with this so it may be worth asking his opinion as I can see it being houseruled regularly.
Now, the other part of this question, can you LoH (just like you can with a light shield)? By RAI I would say yes, by RAW it is not so clear.
According to Mithril description:
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
With armour it is considered one category lighter, while it does not specifically mention Shields, it does mention them later to describe the effects (which are the same for Mithril shields and Armour) so if the effects are the same, by RAI you can argue that a Heavy Shield acts as a light shield and therefore you have a hand free for carrying.
As for RAW, it does not state specifically that the Heavy Shield will act as a light shield so one would assume by RAW it does not. However, if you look at shield descriptions:
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
The only reason the Heavy Shield requires full use of your hand is because of weight. But, by the description of Mithril:
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals
So, a Mithril Heavy Steel Shield now weighs only 1.5lbs more than the light shield, therefore is it light enough to be carried the same way as a Light Shield? The ambiguity of the Mithril description regarding armour/shield means there is nothing stating this is not the case, but on the other hand nothing states it is.
As you can see, when it comes to TWF and Shield fighting, it is worth talking to your DM to find a suitable middle ground that works, else you can find yourselves spending a full gaming session arguing the ins and outs of it.
Sorry for the long post, I just thought it would be helpful to have the common TWF and Shield questions in one place (also big apologies if this has been done, as at work my internet is restrictive and even search works funky here)with opinions relating to them. All comments and own opinions are very welcome.
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Normal TWF gives you at best 1d8 and 1d6 (Longsword and shortsword), while a spiked shield and shortsword gives you 1d6 and 1d6 so you are doing less damage and are further penalised by the fact if you only get one attack in a round it is 1d6 instead of 1d8.
I'm not sure how you are defining "normal" in this case, but if you take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth Sabre) feat, you can treat the sawtooth sabre (found in Adventurer's Armory) as a light weapon, and thus dual-wield it. That's 1d8 in each hand. It's possibly the best TWF weapon in the game.
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By normal I meant the classic most simple combination. Nowadays most people would likely use higher crit weapons so what is used is very much personal opinion, but taking a classic longsword shortsword combination you are talking 1d8 and 1d6.
I forgot to add a small 'in conclusion' to my post, so in my opinion I believe there are 3 sword and board combinations which are likely acceptable to a DM:
1) Light Shield and one handed weapon with full LoH use
This is the common and easiest combination as there is no ambiguity about it. You are using a light off hand weapon (the shield) and the hand is free for self LoH and also available to carry your weapon while you LoH someone else.
2) Heavy Shield Primary Weapon and light off hand weapon with self LoH only
As the game is based on 3.5 it is fair to expect their errata to stand until Paizo state otherwise, as a result this is an acceptable combination. You have no hands free to LoH your team, but you can self LoH unless your DM is really tight - your sword fist against chest should be more than is required to heal yourself.
3) Mithril Heavy Shield primary weapon and light off hand weapon, full use of LoH
The rules are unclear on whether or not a Mithril Heavy Shield would allow you to have your shield hand free, but given that weight is the only factor when dictating this, the fact the shield is not much heavier than a steel light shield suggests you can. I believe most DMs would have no issue with this
I believe those 3 options work within the rules of the game and a realistic player approach towards your DM.
Mithril makes you treat armor as a category lighter, not as another armor type. Shields don't have categories. Your chainmail isn't treated as a chain shirt because it's made of mithril, it's still chainmail in every respect. The same goes for shields; they are all the same category but different types.
If it's so light you'd treat it as a light shield, it has far less mass and as such should also do less damage (because of the abstract large weapon - high damage of D&D). We don't do that, neither for mithril weapons or shields, and shouldn't do either. Likewise, it doesn't (and shouldn't) affect how you hold it. If nothing else, then because light shields would be utterly useless very quickly. There has to be some kind of good thing with them or they'll not get used ever, which is bad design.
So no, neither by RAW or, I assume (can't read their thoughts but fairly certain) RAI should mithril shields gain any other benefit than those explicitly listed; lower weight, lower ASF and no ACP.
So no, 2 and 3 of your conclusions are false. They don't work within the rules and IMO shouldn't work. If you want to use a heavy shield and LOH, use a gauntlet or spiked armor as your off-hand.
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Shields do have categories:
Tower
Heavy
Light
Buckler
Though if you go by feats then technically you only have two categories: Tower Shield and Shield.
By RAW we are told that a Heavy Shield requires you to grip it only because of its weight.
Mithril makes a Heavy Shield 7.5lbs. A light steel shield is 6lbs and the lightest Heavy shield is 10lbs
As by RAW weight is the only reason for the hand to grip the shield then by RAI it is feasible that a Mithril Shield is light enough to be used with just the strap. In fact, you can almost argue that by RAW this is the case - it does not specifically state a Mithril Heavy Shield cannot be worn like a light shield whilst it does state that a Heavy Shield is only worn due to its weight (and not its size) and that Mithril shields weigh half as much.
Item 2) is false if you truly believe the Paladin needs to touch himself with his hand to heal. I guess by RAW the Paladin should, but I don't know a DM who enforces that.
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As for the arguement of it causing a light shield to become useless. That's the way things go in games with gear - as you get more wealth items become pointless.
It's like saying a Breastplate should not exist because it makes chainmail completely pointless which is bad design. The same goes for Half Plate and Full Plate.
These items are not worthless if they are all you have available to you and are in fact great, but once you can get better they become worthless. At least a Mithril Shield will cost significant money, the difference between the worthless chainmail and the great breastplate is 50gp
Shields do have categories:
Tower
Heavy
Light
Buckler
No, they don't, not in the heavy armor - light armor sense. There are different types of shields though, that are different in the same way that a leather armor, a studded leather armor, and a chain shirt is different.
By RAW we are told that a Heavy Shield requires you to grip it only because of its weight.
Mithril makes a Heavy Shield 7.5lbs. A light steel shield is 6lbs and the lightest Heavy shield is 10lbs
First off, the lightest heavy shield is 5lbs, a darkwood heavy shield. Secondly, by RAW we are told that a heavy shield requires you to grip it. Period. That is the rule. It doesn't say "if the shield is unusually light, it counts as a light shield".
The reason it is classified like that is irrelevant when talking RAW. Deadly Aim works "by pinpointing a foe's weak spot" yet works on oozes that have no weak spots. Witch's cackle, by RAW, works in an area of silence. Fey sorcerers laughing touch works against an animated object RAW (though mr. jacobs has stated this might be changed in the errata) even if it doesn't have a mouth.
Note that if the weight value of the shield in question affected this, you could argue that high strength characters should ignore it to. 10 lbs for a Str 10 character is more than 6lbs for a Str 22 character, seen relatively to their carrying capacity.
EDIT:
On the light shield being useless topic: Yes, the breastplate and half-plate ARE examples of bad design. However, they are clear in the rules that they are that way. That doesn't mean using a very liberal interpretation (read: house rule) to make light shields as useless is a good idea. A better idea is to improve the breastplate and half-plate so you get away from bad design, if you have nothing against house-ruling.
The RAW clearly doesn't support your argument (which you will see when other people join this thread, if nothing else) and the RAI probably doesn't either.
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Fair enough, I am no rules expert - hence this thread trying to get clarification and opinion on what is and is not correct.
The only part I saw regarding RAW and Heavy Shield was:
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
The first sentance is EXACTLY the same as the light shield description so by RAW both shields require you to grip it. The second statement then explains your hand cannot be used for anything else (unlike the light shield) due to its weight.
Between that statement suggesting it is weight based and because of how Mithril works with armour, I and a number of other players assumed that this meant that you could make use of your hand like with a light shield. (This was all a side factor anyway because at the time we started looking into this we were just trying to work out if a Mithril Heavy Shield classed as a light weapon, which we found the RAW specifically states this is not the case).
The specific ruling of the Heavy Shield does not effect me personally as the people I play with go with common sense rather than strict rule followers. A Heavy Shield does not allow you to carry things in your hand as you need to grip the shield to use it, but your hand is not glued to the grip, if you need to LoH yourself just let go and do it - the shield is still strapped to your arm so you won't drop it.
But for the sake of clarity I posted here to find out official ruling.
if you need to LoH yourself just let go and do it - the shield is still strapped to your arm so you won't drop it.
The drawback with that is the heavy shield blocking the view when Seelah is touching herself
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