ok i thought i had knowledge checks figured out as i use them quite often but then a players through some questions at me that made me think about the whole system and how it really works.
here's how i treat knowledge check and a lot probably do as well.
party encounters trolls and makes a knowledge chack for giants. check of 10+cr pretty much just tells WHAT the creature is,creature subtype, and maybe general power relative to the party. For every 5 points over the DC another useful peace of knowledge may be revealed. Some monsters may have higher or lower DC's than to 10+cr based on variables- such as how common it is, how likely the player is familiar with beast,magic, or just about anything else the GM wants to throw in. That i got and is probably the most common way it's done.
But here's the issues.
WHEN does/can a player use knowledge for a creature and how does it work-raw only explians the formulae
some examples:
-say a PC learns in the above that they are trolls and they have regeneration and how fire and acid effects them. what if they encounter trolls again later? It makes sense obviously that a PC would still know about there regeneration-thats a given. what if there are still abilities the players doesn't know the creature has? it doesn't make sense he would get a new role unless he leveled up and gained more ranks in the knowledge. BUT this would make it a nightmare of keeping track what checks revealed what, and at what levels they learned what, and when they can try again!!!
-what if the pc encounters a monster again and it has a template, can the pc tell it's say fiendish and get a new check to see if he can tell this and knows anything about fiendish creatures? i would say yes in this case. but would the PC notice automatically without a check that this template creature is some how different than normal creatures of it's type? obviously if you ask for a new check this is going to give something away that something isn't right. what about if the PC encountered a creature with a template first? how would he know it's not a normal version and just that the knowledge he knows is just incorrect!? would he then think that this templated creatures is the norm and all the books he read was wrong?
-can you use knowledge skills to tell anything about class levels? in this case, can you use knowledge checks on a human to get a general idea of level or is it just racial knowledge? SO if it's just racial, a check on a level 10 knights won't really tell you anymore about him than a peasant other than he's well armored and armed?
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My take on it:
Some things are common knowledge, and they can pretty much be assumed to be known without requiring ANY knowledge checks past 1st level or so. For example, trolls and fire. Even if the character has never encountered a troll, he's undoubtedly talked with characters who have.
Other things you learn, and then that thing sticks with you. When you first learn that acid works against trolls as well, you remember that, and don't need to make a knowledge check to "remember" it.
And there are some things that knowledge checks just won't reveal. You aren't taking Knowledge (Bob the Cavalier). The knowledge skills are about a monster (or NPC) race in general. You'll easily be able to identify that Bob is a human, and probably some type of melee class due to the armor and weapons, but he could be a warrior, a fighter, a cavalier, a paladin, or even a rare armor-wearing barbarian or ranger. Hell, he might be a wizard in disguise for all you know.
Likewise, lets say you're using the paragon template from 3.5. If you see a paragon goblin, you won't really be able to tell by a knowledge check that he's a paragon. You'll figure it out when he starts kicking your ass instead of being a (formerly) mobile sheath.
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-what if the pc encounters a monster again and it has a template, can the pc tell it's say fiendish and get a new check to see if he can tell this and knows anything about fiendish creatures?
Potentially yes. But depending upon the template, the character may need to have ranks in a different Knowledge skill. For instance, although Knowledge (Nature) will help identify the abilities, resistances, etc, of a normal troll, you may need ranks in Knowledge (Planar) to recognize abilities conferred by a Fiendish or Celestial template. You could require separate rolls under each applicable Knowledge skill to identify the things that each skill would help with, or you could just require one roll and apply a kind of skill synthesis to it if the character has ranks in each of the applicable knowledge skills (for instance, give the character a cumulative +2 to his base knowledge skill check for each applicable knowledge skill he has ranks in).
but would the PC notice automatically without a check that this template creature is some how different than normal creatures of it's type?
No, not unless the template gives it some outwardly detectable quality that marks it as being different (such as glowing red eyes or a sulfurous odor). Otherwise, a knowledge check could be triggered when the creature does something that is noticably out of the ordinary for its kind. A normal troll cannot smite good, for instance, but it can if it has the half-fiend template. So if a troll strikes your good cleric, does a lot more damage than a normal troll of its size, and the cleric feels like his soul is being ripped apart, then that might be a good indicator that it is a templated creature, thus triggering a new knowledge check.