Honestly, it doesn't bother me for anyone over 1st level. As for the sap . . . how do you masterwork a club? Its a piece of wood. For the most part, anything you can do to masterwork a club pretty much turns it into a morning star or a mace, but there it is.
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I agree, that +1 to hit just made the game unusable and imbalanced! ;)
Seriously tho, that's your style, you don't HAVE to put stuff in the game you don't want to—and I have yet to see a PC in on e of my campaigns use a sap! That's vendor trash! As GM, you have the power to control what your players receive, if you're that bothered by it, make your own scenarios or just re-roll some loot.
There are plenty of common fast food restaurants about - but even so I have no trouble visiting the occasional masterwork fine-dining restaurant to enjoy a well crafted meal.
Masterwork items are essentially just well-made. They are not the equivalent of a damascan-steel katana forged over the heat of a rare slow-flowing lava river over the course of 3 years by a master weaponsmith at the culmination of his career. (Those things are artifact level items, even if they contain no magic.)
The plastic forks and spoons you get at a fast-food diner are "common" equipment. And the proper cutlery you use at home is (usually) masterwork.
Mechanically in the game-world "masterwork" refers to a "well-made" item; as opposed to our every day understanding of masterwork items as rare and special crafts that only a select clientele can afford. Note for example that a "master craftsman" (as per the feat in Core) does not gain the ability to make masterwork items - his craftsmanship is so good that he makes magical items. Those are truly "masterwork" items in the sense that we understand it.
Or do you really believe that a truly masterwork armor gives a paltry slightly lower armor check penalty?
Actually I believe Master work could represent something along the lines of a weapon being perfectly balanced.
This is how i view it as well.
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Actually, most experts in their fields, (in the real world even), are going to use masterwork quality gear. Cheap stuff is what you sell to tourists, beginner hobbiests, or the sap off the farm who doesn't know one end of the spear from another. Once you really get invested in an activity, you tend to want to buy only the very best - especially as it often saves you money over the long run. And especially in vocations where your life is on the line, you are less likely to skimp on purchasing quality.
As mentioned already, masterwork tools are the really good tools compared to the everyday ones.
Look at musical instruments. Professional musicians have ones worth thousands of dollars. Regular ones you can pick up at the music shop? Much cheaper.
The masterwork sap is perfectly balanced and exceptionally well made. It does not wear out from repeated use and probably looks intimidating as well when thumped meaningfully in ones palm while making an Intimidate check.
Sounds like they need to rename the stuff as "journeyman" equipment, instead of masterwork.
The masterwork sap is perfectly balanced and exceptionally well made. It does not wear out from repeated use and probably looks intimidating as well when thumped meaningfully in ones palm while making an Intimidate check.
Perhaps it's full of ball bearings instead of sand. Who cares? It's better made and more effective than your run-of-the-mill sap to the point where it's better able to hold a permanent enchantment and more likely to penetrate protection.
and adventurers don't stick with masterwork gear for very long. these guys tend to get magical items as soon as possible. usually preferring the useful but generic magetouched blade over the unique, named, badass heirloom sword he inherited from his grandfather. unless he has a certain trait and a boatload of cash.
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Masterwork items are essentially just well-made. They are not the equivalent of a damascan-steel katana forged over the heat of a rare slow-flowing lava river over the course of 3 years by a master weaponsmith at the culmination of his career. (Those things are artifact level items, even if they contain no magic.)
It's Asian so it must be better taken to quite an extreme here.
Masterwork items are essentially just well-made. They are not the equivalent of a damascan-steel katana forged over the heat of a rare slow-flowing lava river over the course of 3 years by a master weaponsmith at the culmination of his career. (Those things are artifact level items, even if they contain no magic.)It's Asian so it must be better taken to quite an extreme here.
I left out the bit about force cooling the blade under a crisp mountain spring waterfall during a full moon. ;)
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I used to be a locksmith in real life - as an apprentice I used basic (read cheap) lockpicks but once I got to my final year & thereafter I bought better stuff (masterwork) to replace it - it is easily available from my suppliers it just costs more. These picks are thinner, more varied,& do a better job than my first picks.
SO while I could have used basic ones the masterwork ones were easily available they just cost more - game wise the ordinary folk wont be able to afford the MW version just the basic ones - that does not mean they are not easily available
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Don't you mean quenching it in the snow at the summit of mount Fuji at midnight the eve of the New Year? :PI left out the bit about force cooling the blade under a crisp mountain spring waterfall during a full moon. ;)Masterwork items are essentially just well-made. They are not the equivalent of a damascan-steel katana forged over the heat of a rare slow-flowing lava river over the course of 3 years by a master weaponsmith at the culmination of his career. (Those things are artifact level items, even if they contain no magic.)It's Asian so it must be better taken to quite an extreme here.
All this describes a high level crafter using the Master Craftsman feat and Craft Magic Arms and Armour to make a magic weapon without being a spellcaster. :P
Yes, the static 300 gp for MW is a bit silly, it should have been some sort of percentage. 5 times as expensive or something.
Making a well balanced club should be easier (mean cheaper) than forging a well balanced curved elven sword.
For a club you probably sit down 5 minutes and chip a piece of here and there to make it balanced, for a sword you most likely have to reforge the entire thing.
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I came here expecting this:
That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Masterwork Bastard Sword” bullshit that’s going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Damage 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Damage 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.
Seriously though, considering most PCs will have access to magic weapons by level 3 or 4, masterwork items being widespread doesn't seem much of a problem. It's not as if the NPCs in the GMG were written for a low magic setting.
Lost a post, luckily it wasn't too long. Here's the important point as I remember it, don't think of masterwork items as being actual masterworks, think of them as just being improved items. Maybe they had better materials to work with, had a better forging method, were crafted by a more talented smith, or simply were made with more care. Conversely, the normal items are adequate jobs that were created with average materials by an ok smith at best and were made as quickly as possible.
I think of it as being somewhat similar to modern firearms. Anyone with a little money can pick up a generic, serviceable hunting rifle that performs perfectly adequately, much like the ordinary weapons of Pathfinder. However, there are many superior weapons out there that are somewhat better than ordinary, and cost slightly more. I equate these to the masterwork items presented in Pathfinder. I know I'm ignoring how public perception, PR, and appearance affects prices, but I think the general point holds.
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. . .and I have yet to see a PC in on e of my campaigns use a sap!
The rogue I'm playing in RotRL carries one and has even used it, once or twice (admittedly it hasn't seen any use since the "The Skinsaw Murders", but he still has it). It's nice for a non-evil PC to have the option of merely incapacitating a mook guard rather than shanking him.
I wouldn't waste my GP on a masterwork one, though. Anyone I'm going to use it on I can pretty much hit on anything but a natural 1.
True, it's up there with magical weapons and armor also being a flat rate for enchantments when some base armors would certainly be far more desirable than others.
For magical weapons it makes some sort of sense. It's probably a similar ritual to enchant a club and a swort to "+1 flaming", so that should cost the same markup. But thats magic stuff, we can't really do that in the real world, so real world logic doesn't apply to it.
Masterwork stuff we can do, and so applying RL logic to it makes sense.
IMHO, masterwork items are devalued by there not being enough of them to compare to the magic items that character tends to accumulate.
If you are running a low magic game, in an attempt to make magic items seem more grandiose, then having some more diverse masterwork items, might give "normal" items more personality and keep equipment based character, like fighters, engaged with their favorite sword.
I advocate widening the types of bonuses masterwork items get, perhaps giving them special qualities based on there construction. You might have masterwork rapiers that can cause a +1 bleed, or an axe so well balanced that it receives a +1 damage instead of +1 hit. You might also allow them to go up to +2 in any given value. Armor might be allowed to gain a +1/+2 to armor check, AC, or -5%/-10% to spell failure chance, based on its construction.
For the REAL magic items, you might not consider enhancement bonuses a factor of the magic but rather a factor of the masterwork aspect of the item, and only magic properties such as flaming or ghost touch constitute the 'magic". A +3 enhancement bonus might be "magical" as its generally the level of magic enhancement you need to start bypassing DR.
Honestly, it doesn't bother me for anyone over 1st level. As for the sap . . . how do you masterwork a club? Its a piece of wood. For the most part, anything you can do to masterwork a club pretty much turns it into a morning star or a mace, but there it is.
I inherited a sap from my father, not sure where he got it. It is hardened leather with tripple stitching and a strap that goes across the back of the hand to make it easier to hold. The whole thing is black except for the metal rivits holding the strap in place. The shape is very comfortable to grip as well. The "striking" part seems to have a heavy metal slug stitched deep within the leather. Its form seems to follow its function very well. Compared to a sock with coins, or a wooden club, I consider my sap to be masterwork. As a further side note, I became aware of my father owning it in the seventies, given to me in the eighties, and still in great condition despite having used it for unintended purposes. ( inpromptu hammer )
Sorta off topic, but then I have NO roguish talents and yet have a MWK sap :) So no telling where these MWK items will appear on NPC's :P
Greg
EDIT : Found an image of what I have in an article about Denver police http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2008/10/teen_bites_cop_cop_saps_teen_t .php
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My 20th level commoner has a +1 thunderous sap of throwing. It sure keeps the other commoners in line, boy-howdy!
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Masterwork saps are what occur when the leprechauns who used to be working for shoemakers start working for the local thieves' guild instead.
They also produce the masterwork brass knuckles, garrotes, lockpicks, etc. The truly educated will be able to spot fey craftsmanship, but all the lower level mooks at the thieves' guild know is that the boss told them to leave out a bowl of cream, shut the door, and don't ask questions.
The thieves' guild is surprisingly good at that.
Well, I'd certainly appreciate more diverse crafting system with varied costs. Not only making mwk weapons better than +1, but also allowing them to be crafted with special appendages, jike an axe with a hook to allow trips. And to add a bit more I'd also appreciate having poor quality goods. Common untrained lvl 1 apprentices being able to make such things while taking 10, but requiring more skilled craftsmen to make better. Different difficulties for more complicted things (club vs. swords).
Maybe someday it will happen. Untill then...
Well, I'd certainly appreciate more diverse crafting system with varied costs. Not only making mwk weapons better than +1, but also allowing them to be crafted with special appendages, jike an axe with a hook to allow trips. And to add a bit more I'd also appreciate having poor quality goods. Common untrained lvl 1 apprentices being able to make such things while taking 10, but requiring more skilled craftsmen to make better. Different difficulties for more complicted things (club vs. swords).
Maybe someday it will happen. Untill then...
I actually like the idea alot as well. Infior quality, basic quality, good quality, and masterwork quality.
Green Ronin's Advanced Gamemaster's Guide has rules in it for substandard and better than masterwork stuff as well, and it should still work with Pathfinder.
And Paizo still has it in stock:
I think I might use the system from the Game of Thrones d20...
I actually think the 300 static gp for masterwork helps me when making npcs so I know about what it is. A 1st level human expert that specialises in crafting could make a masterwork weapon on an 11. 15 int from 13 +2 from human + 3 skill focus 1 rank 1 class skill. Yeah a person that went through an apprentice ship can make one about half of the time that has good ability without much expirience. If someone helps it can raise the sucess rate to over half the time.
Heck I love masterwork gear and low level play. What else is the GM supposed to equip his npcs with if you will get too much treasure if all of them have magic weapons or armor. A bunch of coins?
. . .and I have yet to see a PC in on e of my campaigns use a sap!The rogue I'm playing in RotRL carries one and has even used it, once or twice (admittedly it hasn't seen any use since the "The Skinsaw Murders", but he still has it). It's nice for a non-evil PC to have the option of merely incapacitating a mook guard rather than shanking him.
I wouldn't waste my GP on a masterwork one, though. Anyone I'm going to use it on I can pretty much hit on anything but a natural 1.
I had a character with a +5 sap. :)
Of course he was epic level so he pretty much needed it to be +5 if he wanted it to be effective.
Honestly, it doesn't bother me for anyone over 1st level. As for the sap . . . how do you masterwork a club? Its a piece of wood. For the most part, anything you can do to masterwork a club pretty much turns it into a morning star or a mace, but there it is.
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Masterwork items are essentially just well-made. They are not the equivalent of a damascan-steel katana forged over the heat of a rare slow-flowing lava river over the course of 3 years by a master weaponsmith at the culmination of his career. (Those things are artifact level items, even if they contain no magic.)It's Asian so it must be better taken to quite an extreme here.
So swap out katana for rapier, claymore or scimitar. It doesn't have to be Asian. The Spanish were well known for their fine blades as well, also using Damascus style pattern welding (which is originally a middle eastern technique).
Here's a good example of Masterwork vs Standard.
I'm sure most people watched the Pirates of the Carribean (if you haven't, you're insane, it's terrific). Now, the swords that the soldiers use in that movie are pretty much what you get standard out of the book. They're functional, and they hold up to daily use. However, they aren't pretty, and they aren't superbly balanced.
Now, flash to the sword that Orlando Bloom made for the governor to give as a present. It's well made, superbly balanced, and pretty to boot. It will still hold up to daily usage, but it's much better than the soldier's swords.
Bloom's character is a dedicated weaponsmith, but he's not a master. He isn't the old sage who's been making swords for 50 years and who's swords are famous throughout the land. He's just a local blacksmith with a good knack for making weapons, and a real grudge against pirates. His swords are 'masterwork' per D&D terms, but they are not 'master crafted' swords.
An example of a master crafted weapon would be the dragon hilt sword Conner McCloud uses in Highlander. Crafted by a master sword maker, folded over 1000 times, the work of a lifetime. This would in D&D terms be a +5 Keen bastard sword with a special ability that it can be wielded one handed, even without the exotic weapon proficiency.
Well, part of the problem is that masterwork is a flat 300 GP per. That's why it's silly on a sap. How do you make a sap better? Ok, now which of that costs like 10x the cost of a longsword? A masterwork sap should be cheap, if you can do it at all!
My absolute favorite rules abortion is the 600 GP masterwork quarterstaff, calculated as stick off the road (0 GP quarterstaff) plus 300 GP for like, sticking one half of the staff inside 1000 blessed goats and waxing it with the juice of the jub-jub tree, and then 300 GP for doing that with the OTHER side too.
300 GP in a sock would make a very nice sap! That's 6 pounds of gold.
Wait, a sap weighs 2 lbs.6 lbs, 2 lbs . . . holy cow! Whatever they're putting in those saps is worth 3 times the price of gold.
Diamond dust. In case of emergency open enough mwk saps nd you can resurrect...
<Insert grumble here about how items were made prior to the Industrial Revolution.>
<Insert grumble here about how items were made prior to the 16th century, when tool and die standardization started to get widespread.>
The leaf springs in your car are better steel than most historical swords had prior to the 17th century.
The Pathfinder armor system bears as much resemblance to the real world as the D&D hit point system does.
The Pathfinder crafting economy results in most masterwork items costing about twice as much to create (with average die rolls and failure consuming more materials) as they sell for for a 5th level Expert using Skill Focus.
To quote the intro to MST3K: "It's really just a game, relax." :)
The handful of people who, like me, would enjoy playing a game where iron nails were nearly worth their weight in gold, where getting a sword made means reserving the production a year in advance, and where you have to replace your shields after every fight, are already playing Harn. :)
. . . are already playing Harn. :)
Oh, snap! Comparing our game to Harn! That's like bringing up Rolemaster when someone complains about having too many tables. Nice move sir. Nice move.
I think one of the reasons many of us chafe against things like the crafting system is that their neither realistic nor fun. Some very unrealistic things we're fine with because they're fun, and some fun things we don't do because they aren't realistic.
Just a poorly chosen word inherited from previous versions when it may or may not have accurately represented what they are talking about. Masterwork items aren't really the work of masters. Any schlub with a few ranks in Craft whatever and the requisite money and time can make one. Just rename it "High Quality Item" and be done with it.