From the "Why all the monk hate?" thread, we had some good suggestions for possible fixes or patches to the monk class. I'd like to continue that part of the discussion, as opposed to arguing on how to best play a monk.
One suggestion was adding a pounce-like mechanic, either by expending Ki points or making to part of another calss feature like Fast Movement or Flurry of Blows.
Another one was adding WIS to damage, iirc.
Anyone have any other ideas? Insights on the above suggestions?
So also then possibly expanding the kinds of things a monk can spend Ki on would be a good idea?
Would the air walking fall into that as well?
From the "Why all the monk hate?" thread, we had some good suggestions for possible fixes or patches to the monk class. I'd like to continue that part of the discussion, as opposed to arguing on how to best play a monk.
One suggestion was adding a pounce-like mechanic, either by expending Ki points or making to part of another calss feature like Fast Movement or Flurry of Blows.
Another one was adding WIS to damage, iirc.Anyone have any other ideas? Insights on the above suggestions?
Wis to damage is a clean and simple one that would do quite a bit to help the monk. I might also suggest allowing monks to add their wisdom to their CMB as well.
Another thing the monk should have, IMO is the ability to do various wuxia type stuff. Running on the air, balancing on tree tops or strings, etc etc. A good substitute, is to trade 'slow fall' for 'run on the air' (I have a chart if people want to see it)
Furthermore, I really don't think monks have enough ki points to be honest. Wis+level would work much better in my mind.
(The pounce thing has merit, and is a lot better idea now that the barbarian and fighter have similar options from the APG. A ki point to unleash a full attack on a charge would prevent spending a ki point to add an extra attack to the full attack, and would fit in very well with the increased Ki point total I suggested above.)
I think wisdom should replace strength for purpose of attack roll, damage, and CMD/CMD. I don't think the monk should get strength and wisdom to CMB/CMD though. I think being able to spend ki point to overcome various DR alignment and/or metallic(silver,adamantine, cold iron)types should also be an option. Bypassing slashing or piercing should still be done with weapons though. Spending ki points to channel the unarmed attack bonus through a weapon instead of having to pay for the ki enhancement is also an option.
If the player does not want to use brass knuckles that should also be an option.Pounce should be an option, but I don't know at what level and how many times per day(insert other interval as needed) is the best to use though.
By range do you mean reach LT?
That's simple enough. Fix the lunge feat, make it into real reach that also counts for AoO's, and it helps any martial character who can afford the feat. (I'd also suggest letting the monk use his class level instead of BAB to qualify for it if it has a BAB prereq, don't feel like looking it up right now.)
Lunge and Stand Still are too feats I don't really care for. If I did not already have a thousand house rules already I would change those too.
Or make Lunge a base part of combat, at the -2 to AC (or -4) and only during your turn, the feat improving it to until the start of your next turn.
But in my game I am going to run an NPC monk with Wis to damage and attacks and maneuvers, see how it goes. His stats are 10, 14, 13, 12, 18, 8 at 5th level his attack is +8 doing 1d8+4, flurry +5/+5 at 1d8+4, AC 19 (we are using the Defense Bonus variant rules for a swashbuckling pirate adventure) all using NPC stats from the book and WBL. He also has a potion of owl's wisdom he can use to up both defense and attack.
Lunge and Stand Still are too feats I don't really care for. If I did not already have a thousand house rules already I would change those too.By range do you mean reach LT?
That's simple enough. Fix the lunge feat, make it into real reach that also counts for AoO's, and it helps any martial character who can afford the feat. (I'd also suggest letting the monk use his class level instead of BAB to qualify for it if it has a BAB prereq, don't feel like looking it up right now.)
Yeah, as written those feats really aren't that great. Seriously, standstill deals no damage, requires a CMB test, and ONLY works on adjacent opponents, regardless your reach? Not fun.
Was my tweak to lunge adequate? Or do you feel in a game close to standard PF one should throw out the 2 AC penalty as well? (Not like 2 AC really makes much of a difference past a certain level)
I think that allowing the reach to last until the beginning of your next turn makes it viable. For Stand Still I would be happy if it were allowed with reach weapons. It allows the fighter(main melee combatant) to better control the battlefield and protect the squishes.
lets see the crit based unarmed
adding greater CM feats to the bonus list
the pounce option
the wisdom in place of (or gradual level based adding to, to mitigate it being the best one level dip for combat based clerics/druids) STR
I think those were the most positively received suggestions from the other thread
EDIT: ohh and making it a straight out full BAB class.
This. It's a huge pain in the ass to have a monk who has full BAB part of the time but not all of the time. Just let the Martial Character have the Martial Character statistics.
EDIT: ohh and making it a straight out full BAB class.
I agree with this also. It is still needed even with the wisdom to attack and damage.
lets see the crit based unarmed
adding greater CM feats to the bonus list
the pounce option
the wisdom in place of (or gradual level based adding to, to mitigate it being the best one level dip for combat based clerics/druids) STR
I think those were the most positively received suggestions from the other thread
EDIT: ohh and making it a straight out full BAB class.
Well, they already DO get full BAB if they flurry.
Yeah, now that you mention it...is there anything that they get that they can't be full BAB/D10 hp?
What is it developer wise that they need to be 3/4 and d8?
'backwards compatability' is the excuse we were fed when the core rules came out.Yeah, now that you mention it...is there anything that they get that they can't be full BAB/D10 hp?
What is it developer wise that they need to be 3/4 and d8?
Then why isn't the ranger D8 hp? Or mages n sorcs D4?
Apparently BAB is 'higher priority backwards compatibility' than HD, and Paizo was consolidating BAB's to hit dice (except the barbarian... awkward there)Then why isn't the ranger d8 hp?'backwards compatability' is the excuse we were fed when the core rules came out.Yeah, now that you mention it...is there anything that they get that they can't be full BAB/D10 hp?
What is it developer wise that they need to be 3/4 and d8?
poor barbarian. Maybe we can get him some band-aids next.
I'm going to go and say that giving them full BAB, in light of all the other things they get, would just be too much of a slap in the face to other martial-types.
I'm just not sold that full BAB, AND all BEST saves, AND features WAY cooler than just mere "feats", AND all the ki-point options is in any way a "fair" build design premise to use to vs. a Fighter for instance.
At that point, there is little difference in fighter to monk minus only weapon training and armor training - it's TOO much good stuff for monks.
Their current features already grant them a LOT of boons - TWF tree - gratis! (seriously! that's like THE most intensive feat line of combat and they get it free - w/out even needing to meet the pre-req's!! That's just in Flurry, too, mind you!).
Full bab is TOO MUCH for me to swallow on any monk build, though. The flurry and maneuver-thing are *already* nice compromises. If it goes any further in the BAB direction, then a lot more needs to hit the chopping block, IMO.
Edit: other things to ponder - Ki Points from level 1. Seriously - why NOT have them there?
Ki Point option: burn a ki point to act w/BAB = Monk level, even in a FLURRY!!!
Monks are some of the most mobile people around (until you get fly and other travel spells). But that higher movement rate is tied to a class ability that rewards standing still (flurry). Monks need to be able to make more attacks while moving in order to skirmish with some punch, instead of just being able to close a little easier in the first round. I'd even like to test out how well a monk functions if say his flurry only works in a round when he takes a move action vs. flurry on full-attack only.
Also, some of their monk abilities might need reevaluated for when they appear. Tongue of Sun and Moon is equal to a tongues spell, roughly, but they have to wait till the wizard can alter reality itself to get it. Seems a little odd to me.
My suggestions so far:
• They need a full BAB when using their monk style (unarmed or monk weapons, while not wearing armor), not just when flurrying. This cuts down on the attack bonus recalculating (like when you get party buffs, and have to remember both BABs), and opens up some skirmishing viability. Keeping it linked to the monk style of armor and weapons puts a reasonable limitation on the style. If a monk looses his other features when wearing armor, he should loose his full BAB when swinging a great sword.
• Monks need maneuvers. Stylistically maneuvers should be something monks do more effortlessly than other other classes, even fighters (although they should be close). Monks should not provoke AoO from using maneuvers without picking up costly feats, as long as it within reason. I advocate if the monks CMD -10 is greater than the opponent's attack bonus, they avoid the AoO outright. Monks can then comfortably try to use maneuvers and Improved maneuver feats then still keep their value.
• As has been suggested, I think Wisdom needs to be part of the monk's attack mechanic. As a monk gains levels, his wisdom bonus should be able to take over for his strength in calculating his attack bonus. A monk should be able to use his a portion of his wisdom bonus in place of his strength modifier equal to his level. This lets Wisdom be more valued than strength and helps the monk make it a priority. When wisdom is the monks highest stat, all his feature advance at the same rate, and his abilities have DCs appropriate to his level.
• Monks need to be able to heal themselves a significant amount. The vast majority o their features are combat based. They are meant to be in the thick of combat. But their HD is that of a skirmisher, someone who can't last in prolonged combat. Wholeness of Body needs to cover this ground, much like a paladin's lay on hands. I suggest that Wholeness of Body be increased to heal 2x monk level + Con modifier. This is nearly equivalent to an average rolled cure critical spell (as cast by a 7th level cleric). It should also only take a swift action so it can be combined with other combat actions, such as attacks, withdraw actions, fighting defensively, or total defense. If it was to stay a standard action, it wouldn't be worth using while next to an enemy who would do more damage within the same round.
Some other things to consider.
• Feats need to be opened up for use of the monk. The point of bonus feats is to be the monk's "style". They need a bigger list, perhaps different lists for different styles. These lists need to include greater maneuver feats, along with style appropriate feats that have BAB requirements, putting them at the same level that fighters get them. Part of the reason that optimizers despise the monk so much is their limited customization options.
Another option would be to allow monks to use their "better" BAB for feat selection, but restrict them in using those feats to their monk style. You could then take vital strike at 6th level, but if you pick up a bastard sword, you can't use it with vital strike.
• Allowing monks to use wisdom in place of strength for attack bonus is good, but is not the same as a fighter using strength for attack bonus and damage. A monks larger number of attacks and stunning fist make up for this to some degree. However, I think a Feat allowing the monk to use wisdom bonus to damage is flavorful and appropriate. It might be limited to unarmed attacks only, to represent nerve strikes or Ki manipulation. Since unarmed attacks get better damage and are more susceptible to DR, it focuses them in a certain direction rather than being a blanket buff, which is in keeping with the balance of feats.
I'd be ok with WIS contributing to damage, as long as it's considered precision damage, like the Monk's "intuitively" hitting the sweet spot(s) on his opponent, and therefore limiting (mildly) when it comes into play.
As a flat out bonus "just cuz" doesn't seem right.
I'd be ok with WIS contributing to damage, as long as it's considered precision damage, like the Monk's "intuitively" hitting the sweet spot(s) on his opponent, and therefore limiting (mildly) when it comes into play.
As a flat out bonus "just cuz" doesn't seem right.
That seems pretty reasonable to me as another way to go. Some limit I think is needed to flavor the feat or feature.
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That seems pretty reasonable to me as another way to go. Some limit I think is needed to flavor the feat or feature.I'd be ok with WIS contributing to damage, as long as it's considered precision damage, like the Monk's "intuitively" hitting the sweet spot(s) on his opponent, and therefore limiting (mildly) when it comes into play.
As a flat out bonus "just cuz" doesn't seem right.
I dont see why - do fighters or other melee classes have limits on the str adding to damage? so long as wis replaces str & not as well as I think it would be balanced
I dont see why - do fighters or other melee classes have limits on the str adding to damage? so long as wis replaces str & not as well as I think it would be balancedThat seems pretty reasonable to me as another way to go. Some limit I think is needed to flavor the feat or feature.I'd be ok with WIS contributing to damage, as long as it's considered precision damage, like the Monk's "intuitively" hitting the sweet spot(s) on his opponent, and therefore limiting (mildly) when it comes into play.
As a flat out bonus "just cuz" doesn't seem right.
You could be right. But I do think that its good to keep in mind that while a monk's skill and kinesthesia are helping him work without hulking biceps, there needs to be some consideration for how kinesthesia might have its limits. It might be as simple a limit as "you need to use fists or monk weapons". But I was hoping for there to be some discussion about what those limits might be.
Agreed. Another 'small' thing that monks should get, is the ability to enhance their body as a weapon/armor. Yes they can do that now through brass knuckles/bracers of armor, but it's just not as cool or monk-like, you know?I don't see why - do fighters or other melee classes have limits on the str adding to damage? so long as wis replaces str & not as well as I think it would be balancedThat seems pretty reasonable to me as another way to go. Some limit I think is needed to flavor the feat or feature.I'd be ok with WIS contributing to damage, as long as it's considered precision damage, like the Monk's "intuitively" hitting the sweet spot(s) on his opponent, and therefore limiting (mildly) when it comes into play.
As a flat out bonus "just cuz" doesn't seem right.
I agree, but it seems like that is something that all characters could benefit from. Perhaps there needs to be more inherent bonus granting items out there, like monk style manuals. Plenty of 70's era kung fu flicks have monks fighting over a famed "dragon scroll" or some such fighting manual.
Monks in general tend to loose out on big 6 magic items bonuses, whether its because their weapons tend to be rare, or the need for amulets of mighty fists. DMs also tend to run different campaigns with varying levels of magic. Sometimes NO ONE gets big 6 items. This one I think is incumbent on the DM to manage, IMHO, although there is nothing wrong with providing options such as new magic items.
You could be right. But I do think that its good to keep in mind that while a monk's skill and kinesthesia are helping him work without hulking biceps, there needs to be some consideration for how kinesthesia might have its limits. It might be as simple a limit as "you need to use fists or monk weapons". But I was hoping for there to be some discussion about what those limits might be.
I think the restriction of monk weapons or unarmed strikes are the only thing wisdom replacing strength is usable with is an excellent one.
I am undecided on the "this counts as precision damage idea", granted few things are immune to precision damage i just picture the issue of fortification armor coming into play adding another level of rolls and potentially undercutting the Monks damage through-flow a good bit. granted that particular ability dosent come inot play very often and if you have a rogue in the party you would be making the rolls anyway, but i prefer the system to be streamlined dice roll wise even if it costs some level of realism, for what realism is worth in PF
Now should it be a straight swap at level one or should it be additive along with strength but spaced out over levels, is a question I am also interested in discussing.
I think the restriction of monk weapons or unarmed strikes are the only thing wisdom replacing strength is usable with is an excellent one.I am undecided on the "this counts as precision damage idea", granted few things are immune to precision damage i just picture the issue of fortification armor coming into play adding another level of rolls and potentially undercutting the Monks damage through-flow a good bit. granted that particular ability dosent come inot play very often and if you have a rogue in the party you would be making the rolls anyway, but i prefer the system to be streamlined dice roll wise even if it costs some level of realism, for what realism is worth in PF
Now should it be a straight swap at level one or should it be additive along with strength but spaced out over levels, is a question I am also interested in discussing.
I favor the straight swap at level one. If you're concerned about clerics and druids dipping for it (and don't see the caster level loss as sufficient) throw in a contingent that multi-classed monks gain partial increases based on level, such that one would require say a 3-4 level dip.
Also I do NOT like the idea of making the monk's wisdom replacement for strength into precision damage. If you were making it bonus on top of strength then sure, but not as a simple replacement.
One last thing, make sure it leaves the strength(wisdom) x 1.5 for two-handed attacks. Quarterstaves are monk weapons too.
What do you think about the monk being use an amount of his wisdom bonus in place of strength bonus equal to his monk level. So at 1st level, you could get a +1 out of your wisdom mod. If you had an 18 wisdom, you would have to wait till 4th level to get the full +4 amount. Its a little convoluted, but helps with the multiclassing wackiness.
Honestly, here's what *I'm* seeing as the most likely compromise given what's been expressed so far from all comments regarding "Adding Wisdom" and the like:
1) A feat selectable at level 1 akin to Weapon Finesse. Frankly, 3.5 already had that in the Bo9S "Intuitive Strike" and it works *exactly* like WF does - ie: it ONLY affects the "to hit" calculation. IMO, just port in this feat and be done with it. {now, w/1 feat Monks can work like Finesse-types, but with Wisdom, and it's not a double-dip benefit - hit/dmg)
2) A new monk feature active at level 1 that increases with level. Have THIS feature add damage to calculation as a "precision" sort of damage (ie: not multiplied like str w/2-hands). Have this key off of Monk level in some way and be based around the Wis bonus. So, higher level monks can get a higher amount of damage added (thus preventing caster-types from taking 1 level dips and getting THAT much out of it).
Points: It keeps the "to hit" thing as a solid investment - even from cleric-types to make it work (ie: maybe not the best if other options are available, feat-wise), and it limits damage boons for non-monks.
Win-win from all I see so far. :-D
Honestly, here's what *I'm* seeing as the most likely compromise given what's been expressed so far from all comments regarding "Adding Wisdom" and the like:
1) A feat selectable at level 1 akin to Weapon Finesse. Frankly, 3.5 already had that in the Bo9S "Intuitive Strike" and it works *exactly* like WF does - ie: it ONLY affects the "to hit" calculation. IMO, just port in this feat and be done with it. {now, w/1 feat Monks can work like Finesse-types, but with Wisdom, and it's not a double-dip benefit - hit/dmg)
2) A new monk feature active at level 1 that increases with level. Have THIS feature add damage to calculation as a "precision" sort of damage (ie: not multiplied like str w/2-hands). Have this key off of Monk level in some way and be based around the Wis bonus. So, higher level monks can get a higher amount of damage added (thus preventing caster-types from taking 1 level dips and getting THAT much out of it).
Points: It keeps the "to hit" thing as a solid investment - even from cleric-types to make it work (ie: maybe not the best if other options are available, feat-wise), and it limits damage boons for non-monks.
Win-win from all I see so far. :-D
Just so I am clear in my reading number 2 only adds damage correct?
If so then yes port Intuitive strike and add it to the monk bonus list at level 1. It's still a nice feat option for a cleric/ druid/ inquisitor "finesse" build.
I ,personally, would also like to add the Greater CM feats at either 6 or 10 to the bonus feat list or something akin to Anubraid's idea of making maneuvers more attractive for the monk: adding a light damage effect, making the monk's CMB higher with x number of CM's, something.
You could be right. But I do think that its good to keep in mind that while a monk's skill and kinesthesia are helping him work without hulking biceps, there needs to be some consideration for how kinesthesia might have its limits. It might be as simple a limit as "you need to use fists or monk weapons". But I was hoping for there to be some discussion about what those limits might be.I think the restriction of monk weapons or unarmed strikes are the only thing wisdom replacing strength is usable with is an excellent one.
I am undecided on the "this counts as precision damage idea", granted few things are immune to precision damage i just picture the issue of fortification armor coming into play adding another level of rolls and potentially undercutting the Monks damage through-flow a good bit. granted that particular ability dosent come inot play very often and if you have a rogue in the party you would be making the rolls anyway, but i prefer the system to be streamlined dice roll wise even if it costs some level of realism, for what realism is worth in PF
Now should it be a straight swap at level one or should it be additive along with strength but spaced out over levels, is a question I am also interested in discussing.
I did the straight swap at level one, and it worked out well. I also let it apply all the time. I just fluffed it as focusing ki energy(not actually using ki points).
edit: If you make wisdom only to hit then it does not really solve anything since it is no better than weapon finesse. Their damage won't increase, and they still rely on four attributes as opposed to 2 or 3 like other classes.
Take a look at This post I made up-thread for my thoughts on the multi-classing. (This is kind of like weapon finesse, a level 1 REALLY should get it completely, and if not he had better get it by level 2 or he's really going to hate life lol)
Yup, this is exactly what I've been thinking of doing for Monks. I'd not say it heals all their ills, but it certainly helps them out a great deal. If I can get my new PF campaign off the ground this Winter, then I will definitely offer something akin to this for players interested in Monks.
I'm planning on two changes to the monk and one new rule.
Because the monk gets flurry of blows at full BAB, I think the class should have a d10 HD. Not a big change, but it puts the class in line with other melee types. I actually prefer the idea of a d12, but I'm not sure all of the players would appreciate such a big change.
Along with the HD, I think the CMB and CMD should be calculated using the full BAB from flurry of blows.
Finally, I'm also planning to add an optional rule that at 3rd level, monks can charge at normal speed (not double) and can do a flurry of blows instead of a single melee attack. This new rule would allow the monk to get the full use out of fast movement and be a mobile attacker.
Does anyone see any problems with these changes?
edit: If you make wisdom only to hit then it does not really solve anything since it is no better than weapon finesse. Their damage won't increase, and they still rely on four attributes as opposed to 2 or 3 like other classes.
That's why it's a 2-pronged proposal - a sort of "meet between" solution.
A full swap would be a bit too much (for some that have commented), and then it's a level dip-problem if it's all or nothing from the get on top of that boost.
So, my solution is to give a WF-like feat but base it on Wis instead, AND to introduce wis-based damage from the monk class levels and wis bonus in some combination precisely *to* stop/prevent casters from 1-level dipping into the Monk just to get wis-based combat AND damage boosters.
My solution costs 1 feat (somewhere in any build that wants it), AND requires multiple monk levels to really reap a full benefit from adding Wis to damage (beyond just the "to hit" feat).
I completely disagree in that it will not solve the MAD issues, since (frankly) they can mimic a fighter's singled minded Str dedication, only apply it to Wis instead and in the other thread I believe we already covered the HUGE list of features for monks that will be affected by dedication to Wis. They will *absolutely* cause more DPR in the long-run if they can just add wis as a precision-based damage to their other damage dealing. The slow level gain thing is pointedly a caster/level-dip nerf to prevent that ability from being abused.
Think along the lines of the Duelist PrC and how only +1/level is added to damage (max of 10), so something like that is how I'd like to have the monk bonus trickle in for them. They would fully still deal str-based damage, but add *maybe* (totally thin air here) +1/2 monk level's worth of Wis bonus damage to all strikes inflicted (ie:+10 by level 20).
It's a very "middle of the road" solution I'm proposing. I mean, level 8 before you can net a +4 from the wis to add to damage (although anything else pumped into it will be fully applicable on "to hit" rolls).
If you up the "to hit" you are, *of necessity* going to increase DPR.
Instead of being 4-ability based (str, wis, dex, con) as they currently are, Monks will be more (wis, dex, con) focused or at least capable of mimicking a fighter's effectiveness (w/out the same bab all the time, though).
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I'm planning on two changes to the monk and one new rule.
Because the monk gets flurry of blows at full BAB, I think the class should have a d10 HD. Not a big change, but it puts the class in line with other melee types. I actually prefer the idea of a d12, but I'm not sure all of the players would appreciate such a big change.
Along with the HD, I think the CMB and CMD should be calculated using the full BAB from flurry of blows.
Finally, I'm also planning to add an optional rule that at 3rd level, monks can charge at normal speed (not double) and can do a flurry of blows instead of a single melee attack. This new rule would allow the monk to get the full use out of fast movement and be a mobile attacker.
Does anyone see any problems with these changes?
My house rule with monks is that Manuever Training Applies to CMB and CMD. My groups feel that the monk niche is Combat Manuever use in Pathfinder RPG. We also allow for the use of spending a ki point to add their wisdom to their CMB and CMD for one round.
Rather than letting them "charge and flurry" We allow monk's to spend a ki-point and extend their 5-foot step to their movement speed. Which Still allows for a flurry, sans the charge bonus and penalties.
Tying the abilities to ki...makes characters more inclined to invest, rather than dip into monk. At the same time, giving more ki-point based abilities, allows the monk to be more adpatable in the given situation.
The d10 hit die I'm on the fence about. It's sort of the same issue with giving them full BAB, Monks seem like they should be the middle ground from paladin to rogue or cleric to rogue. Yeah they have asoem neat tricks and skills, and they can hold their own in a fight. Monks could use the extra survivability, I'm not arguing that own bit. However, I don't think it should be in the form of a bigger hitdie. I'm thinking monk's should get something more along their flavor. Such as gaining temporary hp based on level and wisdom. not quite rage or defensive stance persay, but along the lines of battle focus. Anyone remember the Sohei from Oriental Adventures? Or Red Avenger PrC from Sword and Fist? That's where I'm going with my ideas.
Though when I'm playing monks, I'm shooting for more wuxia film than dragonball, which is what I'm seen a lot of people to to push monks into.