i really like the idea of lion/bear but i cant bring myself to build around it i want a pretty hard hitting melee druid while not ignoring the caster side. we are using 25 point buy and are currently level 2 with access to just the core books(a player complained so we stopped using 3rd party books). i like the idea of running into melee with claws and other such natural attacks. so forum gurus can you help a poor man out?
i apologize if this post is a mess ask me and ill clear anything up. thanks in advance
i really like the idea of lion/bear but i cant bring myself to build around it i want a pretty hard hitting melee druid while not ignoring the caster side. we are using 25 point buy and are currently level 2 with access to just the core books(a player complained so we stopped using 3rd party books). i like the idea of running into melee with claws and other such natural attacks. so forum gurus can you help a poor man out?
i apologize if this post is a mess ask me and ill clear anything up. thanks in advance
First off, what do you mean by core books? The Pathfinder Core book and Bestiary or are you allowed all the Paizo Pathfinder supplements as well (Advanced Players Guide, the companions, etc.)? That will make a big difference in what spells, feats and traits you could have. Also doing what it seems you want to do is very very hard on ability scores, you need a high constitution (to take damage), dexterity (to not get hit as armor won't work when you wildshape normally), strength (to hit and do damage) and decent wisdom (at least as much as 10+ the level of spells you'll need to be able to cast - if you're playing to a level high level, you'll need a 19 wisdom at that point to case 9th level spells). Even with a 25 point buy you aren't going to have great stats for this and you have to be able to pull your weight for the levels before you get wildshape as "regular" ability (read multiple times a day) You end up playing a pseudo-caster for the first 6-8 levels of your career.
From a core (PFRPG core book) perspective losing caster levels is a bad thing, even if you are planning on playing mostly a "wildshape melee" type of character. However, taking a level or two of another class isn't going to preclude you from getting the highest level spells (9th) so if you feel you need to or want them, just realize you're delaying spell access and make the levels in that other class "count." It also makes a big difference on how long you plan on playing (if you aren't going to get past level 10, you need an appropriate build, as opposed to playing to level 17-20, which would use an entirely different build).
If you can give a little more info on the books and what the upper limits of the game are going to be (12th level? 17the level?), you'll give anyone looking to help something to work with.
the books im allowed are the core book, the beastiary, and the APG. we dont have any of the supplements yet. we are going to run the full serpents skull adventure path i dont know what level that gets to. I am not dead set on melee it was just filling a gap in our party makeup (a heal oriented cleric, a ranged fighter, an inquisitor and a cavalier both of them seem to like it more at ranged then in melee if the makeup matters). we have actually been playing for a little while and i have permission to do a rework as long as i keep the gear the same(only thing of note is a +1 scimitar and a mw heavy shield)
I am ok being a little fragile if thats what it takes. but if its just that bad of an idea i can get a better animal companion to try keep the bad guys locked into melee i have a dire bat currently i thought it was neat and like the out of combat possibilities it offered.
I hope that was enough info to fill in some of the blanks. again i apologize if i still yet again am missing something
Good enough. First off by no means is this gospel or an "optimized" build but just a suggestion on what to do for the concept it seems you want. Any adventure path will probably take you to at least the 17th level I believe (at least that is what they are listed level wise) so you're looking long term. If you choose to play a shaman type druid you will have to choose another companion to match obviously.
Playing up to the point where you get wildshape you are basically a caster. As you can use the APG the shaman aspects you are looking at are pretty good and I would choose the feline one (there are more cats in the bestiary than bears, which means more options for the wildshape). The only good thing about the bear shaman at the lower levels (aspect) is the toughness option (+2 AC and endurance) which makes up for your lack of heavy armor. In the long run though, you'll have magic or magic items that will be much better. The damage difference is 1d6 (bear) vs 1d4 (cat) and given averages, is only 1 point more so not a huge deal (at least to me).
So with that said I'd probably do something like str, dex, con, wis 14 the rest 10. That leaves you 5 points to put towards str, dex, con or wis and get another +2 to any of them. This is not including the racial bonus obviously, you didn't say which race but my suggestion would be Human if it is possible (the extra feat will help). I personally would put it into Con or Dex, the extra hit points are never a bad thing if you are going to be in the thick of things and Dex helps AC and ranged touch attacks (spells). If you are human I'd put the other +2 into Str for combat purposes or Wisdom for spells (the long game requires you to have a 19 wisdom and this allows you to ignore wisdom for awhile). I'd also start saving your gold for some good armor.
What I am going to say next might cause some other posters to disagree, but I would actually suggest taking a level of Fighter first and then a level of Druid up until Druid 2/Fighter 2. Reason being if you are going to play in combat, you need a better BAB. Fighter gives you a slightly larger hit point pool (assuming max hp at first level, 10+con mod another d10 later) and a free feat for both levels as well as full armor training (more on that later). If you are human and do this Druid 2/Fighter 2, you will have 3 feats at first level (1 Human, 1 1st level, 1 Fighter). I would suggest the feats Multiattack (bestiary), Weapon Focus:claw and Boon Companion if possible (it is from a Paizo product supplement). If not take Weapon Focus:bite. At 3rd level (Druid2/Fighter1) you get another feat and at 4th level you get yet another (Druid2/Fighter2), I'd take Natural Spellcaster for the level 3 feat, and dodge for the fighter level bonus feat at 4th.
*Leave out Dodge or Weapon Focus:bite if you cannot be Human. Switch out Dodge for Boon Companion if you cannot get that, probably. Boon Companion allows the Animal to be the appropriate level instead of 2 levels lower from taking Fighter*
Now this leaves you with a BAB of +3 at 4th level and sets you up for when you get wildshape in 4 levels (Druid6/Fighter2) to have an additional +1 to hit with the majority of natural weapons (claws/bite) and only a -2 penalty for secondary natural attacks. During this time you'll want to acquire some Dragonhide armor. The best you can afford really (full plate costs 3300 gold), your DEX is at best 16 so you end up with a better armor class even if you don't get your full Dex modifier from the limitations. Also you are going to be aiming to get Wild once you can afford it (16,000 gold, first +1 then save up 15k). This should be available around 7th level (23.5k is roughly what you should have at that point including your +1 weapon and shield that you have now).
So from 2nd to 6th level you are trying to take advantage of your ability to wear armor hide armor and shield to survive and using your magic weapon or natural weapons (1 bite 1 claw, you lose the last claw if you are holding a shield) and animal companion to deal damage in combat. Maybe grab a ranged weapon too just "in case." Also if you wearing heavier armor you can chose to increase your movement(2nd level Lion Shaman) instead of using the natural weapons to make up for it. You will have fewer spells per day (+1 per level from Wisdom) so you want to choose things that will have a longer duration or are very effective (cure light wounds or Magic Fang on your Animal companion for example). At 4th level choose where you want to put your attribute bonus (str or wisdom would be my suggestion). At 5th level chose another feat, Improved unarmed strike (I know it is a waste but it is a prereq. for Improved Grapple).
Once you hit 7th level you get another feat (Improved Grapple) and can use Summon Natures Ally spells as a standard action to summon feline type creatures. So if things are looking bad, you can use any spell you have memorized and spontaneously summon another ally anywhere on the field within the range of the spell (maybe to give someone flank) as a standard action instead of a full round action. Also by this point you should have a good AC between the Dragonhide armor you were saving up for, the Dodge feat and your Dex mod even though your damage might be a little low (only 1 attack from BAB +5), that can be offset by changing out the shield and using natural attacks which would give you 3 attacks modified by STR and Weapon Focus feats (probably around +7 or +8 to hit each).
Next level all your hard work pays off, at 8th level you get wildshape which lasts for 8 hours in cat form, 4 in any other. Don't forget to bump up a stat again (str or wis again my suggestion). Seeing as you should have your at this point, your AC will be very good for a "caster" type. You can change form to a dire tiger, which gives you a +4 enhancement to Str, -2 enhancement to Dex and +4 Natural AC as well as low-light vision, scent, pounce, rake, 40 movement, 10' reach, 2d4 claws and 2d6 bite (which starts a grapple). From the dodge feat, dex mod, wildshape and armor your AC will be around 26 and you can increase it with spells like Barkskin. Also you have 3rd level spells (Druid6/Fighter2) to buff your claws and bite (magic fang, greater magic fang) and can cast spells while in tiger form. Bull's strength and Bear's Endurance will help your str and con (+2 hit and damage, +2 hit points per hit die).
From that point on you just want to increase Druid levels to better your wildshape and animal companion, as well as take feats to increase your melee combat abilities (Improved natural attack: claw & bite, or improved natural armor). Maybe take teamwork feats for both you and your companion (need to increase its Int to 3 before you can do that though). You will still get access to 9th level spells (if you increase your wisdom to 19) and keep an eye out for huge cats to wildshape into. Also you aren't just limited to just feline forms once you have more wildshapes per day, it will just be the best form for you if combat is going to happen. Increase the enhancement bonus of your armor a little but look for things like a ring of force (potion of shield is cheap if you only need it for a combat and don't have the money yet), amulet of mighty fists (its effects cover all your attacks so it is definitely pricey) as well as Str, Con and Wis enhancement bonuses.
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i really like the idea of lion/bear but i cant bring myself to build around it i want a pretty hard hitting melee druid while not ignoring the caster side. we are using 25 point buy and are currently level 2 with access to just the core books(a player complained so we stopped using 3rd party books). i like the idea of running into melee with claws and other such natural attacks. so forum gurus can you help a poor man out?
i apologize if this post is a mess ask me and ill clear anything up. thanks in advance
I have a couple things, because I just made a druid BBEG.
I'm a fan of the bear shaman, so I'm going to use that as an example. Because everything is better with bears.I'd say that your "natural weapons" totem transformation is the one you want to use most often. You're going to be putting out more damage than the fighter at first level, even if you don't have a strength bonus--because you have 3 attacks. 2d4+1d6 is an average of 8, so if you hit with all three that's pretty darn good. If you have a strength of 12, that's 11 damage, even.
With this in mind, you're going to want high attack bonuses to make sure you get all that damage in. But you're also going to want a good AC, because you can't use metal armor and you're going to be in melee.
So for stats, I'd say your most important ones are Dex and Wis. Some constitution will be necessary, and you shouldn't dump strength below 10.
Dex will give you a high armor class. If you take Weapon Finesse as your feat, you'll be able to add this to attack as well.
Wis is your spellcasting score; extra spells per day is always a good thing.
So if I were you, I'd put most of my points into those two scores. And I might even dump Int a little, because your character is going to identify with creatures of intelligence 1 or 2, possibly even preferring them to humans.
As you level up, you're going to get Wild Shape. I've found that what makes Wild Shape most effective is a single level of barbarian. You can become a bear at 6th level (size Large, too, because of the shaman ability!) and with a few rounds of rage you can really wreak some havoc. You could take the feat Extra Rage if you want to get more rounds, rather than wasting time on extra levels of barbarian. Being behind half a spell level is not such a big deal, but you don't want to get away from Druid for too long.
A good thing to do as a melee spellcaster would be to either take Combat Casting, or wait until you get to a higher level and take Quicken Spell. Or both, really.
Quicken Spell is good because it doesn't provoke attacks, and it gives you the opportunity to use both your spellcasting and wild shape in the same round. Just be sure to take Wild Spell!
Hope this helps.
Try this
I've thought about a Lion Shaman with Improved/Greater Grapple. Having the rake ability could make grappling pretty nifty.
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Go Druid of Erastil, for the longbow proficiency. Nothing sucks worse against ranged opponents than plunking away with that darned sling.
After a few levels, you'll be biting faces, so it's not as much of an issue, but for the first few levels, that longbow is gonna be nice.
(The only other diety with anything amazing for Druids is Lamashtu, who allows the summoning of fiendish animals with summon nature's ally, but that's not really where you are going with this build, and my brain recoils at the thought of trying to make a druid of Lamashtu that would work well in a party...)