My DM is having us try out playing a 'monster race' campaign, where we all play creatures out of the bestiary. We have 3HD to play with, so I went to play a Human Bloody Skeleton Champion Fighter (level 1). By my math it is 3HD (2 from S.C. and 1 from Fighter) so it should work out right.
Now the problem that I'm running into is that the bloody skeleton has channel resistance +4, and the Skeletal Champion ALSO has Channel resistance +4. That means that a character with both templates have +8 right? And the +2 dex from base skeleton bonus stacks with the skeletal champions +2 str and +2 dex right?
Anyways, any help I can get in this regards, I would appreciate it. Further help actually building this, I would be ecstatic.
1) Monster races should be based off CR, not HD. Also, unless you guys are really experienced, i'd suggest you all start off with equal CR. And beware of 'progressive' templates (Half-Fiend/Celestial).
2) As it's a bonus it overlaps (does not stack).
3) The attributes do stack however. If you're a Half-Dragon/Human you get the normal attribute bonuses for 1/2dragon and the +2 to one attribute for being human.
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You apply the Skeletal Champion template instead of the Skeleton template, not in addition to it. Apart from anything else, you can't apply either Skeleton or Skeletal Champion to an undead. However, the Bestiary allows (by implication) a bloody skeletal champion, so you'd apply the Bloody Skeleton alterations to Skeletal Champion.
So, 1) Yes, you get +4 channel resistance for skeletal champion and +4 for bloody skeleton, making +8. I think this agrees with the description of each creature.
2) No, you only get the statistical changes from skeletal champion and bloody skeleton (+2 STR, +2 DEX, no CON, CHA becomes 14). Make sure you put the minimum that you can into CON and CHA, because you'll lose them.
What are the limits set by your GM?
If they are loose, you should consider some of the (abusive) combinations, suchs as Young and Giant, which cancels eachother out CR-wise, but gives you a bonus of +1 NA and +2 dex.
Or do it for real and take the advanced template (in combination with young), which is as unbalanced as it gets...
So, 1) Yes, you get +4 channel resistance for skeletal champion and +4 for bloody skeleton, making +8. I think this agrees with the description of each creature.
Uh, no. Channel resistance is a named bonus, so they do not stack, they overlap. (Same way that if you take a creature with Energy Resistance 5 and apply a template which grants Energy Resistance 5, you don't suddenly get something that has Energy resistance 10.)
Otherwise I agree with the other posters - check with your GM to make sure he knows what the heck he's doing, otherwise the game won't really be fun for anyone (well, it might be fun for the one guy who brings the half-celestial half-fiend advanced giant half-dragon something or other - or better yet, just paragon if he's allowing 3.5 stuff in there). And then make sure you know what you're doing by following his rules.
The limit set by the GM was CR 3 total.
fractional CR types are considered 0 CR for this.
I didn't see the 'young' template, but did see advanced. Would that be preferrable to taking a level in a class, should we get xp enough to advance?
Is my Skeletal Champion idea a good one or bad? Got any other interesting ideas?
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The limit set by the GM was CR 3 total.
fractional CR types are considered 0 CR for this.I didn't see the 'young' template, but did see advanced. Would that be preferrable to taking a level in a class, should we get xp enough to advance?
Is my Skeletal Champion idea a good one or bad? Got any other interesting ideas?
Young + Advanced cancel each other out as far as CR goes, you end up with CR+0.
You lose a dice size of your natural attacks (d6 down to d4 and etc.) and become one size smaller (read: +1 to attacks and AC already) to gain +8 dexterity, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha.
If your GM allows it he's probably got something evil in mind for you guys.
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Okay, to go from the pure munchkin angle:
(And I just want to say that I think it's heinous)
NE Small Undead
Ini +11, Senses Darkvision 60ft, Perception +4
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AC 22, touch 17, flat-footed 16 (+3 Armor, +1 Shield, +6 Dex, +1 Size, +1 Natural)
hp 32 (2d8+1d10+18); fast healing 1
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +6
Defensive Abilities channel resistance +4, deathless; DR 5/bludgeoning; Immune cold, undead traits
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Offense
Spd 20ft.
Melee Longsword +10 (1d6+7, 19-20/x2) OR Lucerne Hammer +10 (1d10+10, x2)
Ranged Sling +10 (1d3+7, x2, 50ft)
_______________________________________________
Statistics
Str 24, Dex 24, Con -, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 22
Base Atk +2; CMB +8; CMD 25
Feats: Improved Initiative, Point-Blank Shot, Combat Reflexes
Gear: Longsword, Lucerne Hammer, Sling, Leather, Armored Kilt, Buckler
Might be a mistake or ten, but I think it's still pretty hateful. You probably shouldn't do this, lest the GM goes "Rocks fall".
EDIT: I forgot that he's actually got much higher stats, 'cause of giving beasties class levels. So, he's even better/worse now.
I was looking at heinous without being immediately destroyed, and thought another good one would be an Advanced Lizardfolk Barbarian. I'm sure they have them, but I'd be swinging a 24-ish strength+ with rage and be very scary overall.
What do you think?
Just for clarification, are you limited to CR 3, 3 hit dice, or both?
I think it's both.
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Okay, one more because this one looks fun:
Not sure whether to drop template to grab an extra class level...
CE Medium Outsider (native)
Init +7, Senses Darkvision 60ft, Low-light Vision; Perception +4
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Defense
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+2 Armor, +1 Shield, +3 Natural, +6 Dex)
Hp 33 (2d10+18)
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +6
Defensive Abilities: Ferocity; DR 5/magic; Immune poison;
Resist: Acid 10, Cold 10, Electricity 10, Fire 10, SR 14
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Offense
Speed 30ft, Fly 60ft. (Average)
Melee Flail +10 (1d8+10/x2) and Light Spiked Shield +10 (1d4+5/x2) and Bite +7 (1d6+5/x2) OR Bite +12 (1d6+10/x2) and 2 Claws +12 (1d4+10/x2)
Ranged Sling +9 (1d4+10/x2)
Special Attacks: Smite Good 1/day
Spell-Like Abilities: (CL 1st)
3/day - Darkness
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Statistics
Str 30, Dex 24, Con 26, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 12
Base Attack +2; CMB +12; CMD 19
Feats Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Iron Will
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Okay, one more because this one looks fun:
Not sure whether to drop template to grab an extra class level...
** spoiler omitted **
Not sure the math is right here... Half-fiend is at least a +1, advanced is a +1 and Orc Fighter 2 is CR2. This should be CR4, with an extra level half-way between CR4 and CR5 (buying the adjust down to +1).
Either way, anything using the simple templates can be shot down instantly on the grounds of "these aren't intended for creatures that last longer than an encounter."
And really, templates in general are built for the same thing (or for the "this guy is scary" BBEG), not for people.
I, as a DM, would not allow anyone to play a monster with any form of template attached without me giving it an explicit check-up.
Skeletal Champion? Not an issue if applied to a base humanoid race, which I presume is the intended balance point. Bloody Skeletal Champion? Getting questionable. Advanced Bloody Skeletal Champion? Letmethinkaboutit NO. Advanced Young Bloody Skeletal Champion? What are you trying to *DO* here?
Okay, one more because this one looks fun:
Not sure whether to drop template to grab an extra class level...
** spoiler omitted **
Not sure the math is right here... Half-fiend is at least a +1, advanced is a +1 and Orc Fighter 2 is CR2. This should be CR4, with an extra level half-way between CR4 and CR5 (buying the adjust down to +1).
Either way, anything using the simple templates can be shot down instantly on the grounds of "these aren't intended for creatures that last longer than an encounter."
And really, templates in general are built for the same thing (or for the "this guy is scary" BBEG), not for people.
I, as a DM, would not allow anyone to play a monster with any form of template attached without me giving it an explicit check-up.
Skeletal Champion? Not an issue if applied to a base humanoid race, which I presume is the intended balance point. Bloody Skeletal Champion? Getting questionable. Advanced Bloody Skeletal Champion? Letmethinkaboutit NO. Advanced Young Bloody Skeletal Champion? What are you trying to *DO* here?
The build I had was a bloody skeletal champion. I also wanted to look at advanced Lizardfolk Barbarian.
The additional power, can be cool but the more i twink the higher the chance i have of getting REJECTED stamped across the sheet.
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Not sure the math is right here... Half-fiend is at least a +1, advanced is a +1 and Orc Fighter 2 is CR2. This should be CR4, with an extra level half-way between CR4 and CR5 (buying the adjust down to +1).Okay, one more because this one looks fun:
Not sure whether to drop template to grab an extra class level...
** spoiler omitted **
Orc Fighter 2 is CR 1. Orc Warrior 1 is CR 1/3, Fighter brings it up to 1/2, and a second level of Fighter brings it to 1. Each template gives a +1 for a total of CR 3.
And don't get me wrong, I don't encourage anyone to use that monstrosity, because while it may technically be CR 3, its stats are ridiculous. More of a thought experiment on overpowered monstrous character.
The build I had was a bloody skeletal champion. I also wanted to look at advanced Lizardfolk Barbarian.The additional power, can be cool but the more i twink the higher the chance i have of getting REJECTED stamped across the sheet.
The advanced lizardfolk Barbarian could surely work. The Natural Armor could do a lot for the Barbarian AC. You could also change it to a troglodyte for a few extra goodies (+1 NA, stench aura, and darkvision).
I think it is difficult to give you any clear cut advice, as long as we don't know much about what your GM has in mind. Amongst other things, how do you usually level up? By xp or at fixed points? In case of the former it would surely be a drawback to make any character with more than 1 class level.
I think it is difficult to give you any clear cut advice, as long as we don't know much about what your GM has in mind. Amongst other things, how do you usually level up? By xp or at fixed points? In case of the former it would surely be a drawback to make any character with more than 1 class level.
I think the leveling up by xp thing is the plan. Though I can present to him an appealing enough case I may be able to sell leveling up at fixed points.
Don't troglodytes have problems working during the day?
Don't troglodytes have problems working during the day?
I don't see any light sensitivity in the SRD, so it does not seem so.
EDIT: Other than that, it doesn't make too much of a difference whether you make a lizardman or a troglodyte. If you are allowed to have the advanced template, then you can make a quite mean barbarian with any of them.
it doesn't make too much of a difference whether you make a lizardman or a troglodyte.
...Except your fellow party members will have to make constant Fortitude saves around you to avoid being nauseated.
I say go with the lizardman :) (Or stock up on perfume I suppose.)
it doesn't make too much of a difference whether you make a lizardman or a troglodyte....Except your fellow party members will have to make constant Fortitude saves around you to avoid being nauseated.
I say go with the lizardman :) (Or stock up on perfume I suppose.)
They need to make one save during the first couple of minutes each day, after that they are immune for 24 hours. Just a short while to get used to the smell...
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Not sure the math is right here... Half-fiend is at least a +1, advanced is a +1 and Orc Fighter 2 is CR2. This should be CR4, with an extra level half-way between CR4 and CR5 (buying the adjust down to +1).Okay, one more because this one looks fun:
Not sure whether to drop template to grab an extra class level...
** spoiler omitted **
Orc Fighter 2 is CR 1. Orc Warrior 1 is CR 1/3, Fighter brings it up to 1/2, and a second level of Fighter brings it to 1. Each template gives a +1 for a total of CR 3.
And don't get me wrong, I don't encourage anyone to use that monstrosity, because while it may technically be CR 3, its stats are ridiculous. More of a thought experiment on overpowered monstrous character.
This CR calculation is true for NPCs with those levels, but having PC wealth bumps you up by 1.
But I do appreciate how your examples have shown how badly template stacking can screw things.
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PC wealth is CR+1? Very well, I'll have to look that up. Didn't know that! :DThis CR calculation is true for NPCs with those levels, but having PC wealth bumps you up by 1.
But I do appreciate how your examples have shown how badly template stacking can screw things.
Yup. NPC with NPC class = level - 2 CR, NPC with PC class = level - 1 CR, PC = level CR. The difference between each in terms of wealth is pretty big.
NPC classes are also assumed to get the "standard" array of 13,12,11,10,9,8, whereas NPCs with PC classes get the elite array of 15,14,13,12,10,8. PCs, of course, get more freedom and generally a 20pb equivalent instead of 15.Between the wealth, stat and class-quality differences, you get the CR differences.