Rules questions about Eidolons


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Hey all, I just have some quick rules questions about the Summoner's eidolon. The group that I'm in is currently in the process of transferring from 4e to Pathfinder, and I'm completely new to the system (I started playing in 4e). Please bear with me if I'm making any noob rules mistakes. :P

So I'm making a Summoner, and I have an idea of how I want my eidolon to be built. We're starting at 4th level in my group, and I'd like to know if this build is legal:

Eidolon type: Biped

Evolutions taken:
4 points: Limbs (arms) x2
2 points: Simple weapon proficiency
1 point: Bite attack

Equipment:
Simple one-handed weapon x6

Total attacks per round:
Primary attacks --
Simple weapon attack x6

Secondary attacks --
Claw attack (claws applied to feet) x2
Bite attack x1

The idea is that the eidolon will have 6 hands in which to hold a simple melee weapon (or a shield), plus 3 natural attacks. My understanding of the rules is that all 6 weapon attacks will be primary attacks and will act under the rules for "two weapon fighting" (so one is "main hand" and the others are "off hand"), and that the three natural attacks will be considered secondary attacks. Additionally, my understanding is that this setup does not violate the "max attacks" restriction, because that restriction explicitly says that weapon attacks do not count toward its total. Also, the description for the "claws" evolution says it can be applied to legs once, but has no restriction for using it on bipedal eidolons.

So, is this legal? Am I missing something? Because this seems a wee bit powerful for a level 4 creature.

Dark Archive

I think you would need Multiweapon Fighting and follow the rules there.

Grand Lodge

Captnhaggis wrote:
Simple one-handed weapon x6

If you want to hit at all, you'd want light rather than one-handed weapons, and you would need multiweapon fighting as YuenglingDragon mentioned.

One of the developers said the unrestricted weapon attacks was an oversight, but there hasn't been an official errata limiting it yet.

Scarab Sages

Ok, thank you both for your input. I'll modify the build to include the multiweapon fighting feat and light weapons.

I'll also keep an eye out for any errata, in case they decide to nerf this! :P


Pretty much what the other 2 said about RAW.

If i were you i would probably ask my GM whether or not he will allow the HUGE cheeze and extreme oversight of paizo, as the rules are clearly not intended to be bendable in that way. But if you are cheezing around then sure go ahead.

If he allows the build, i would also drop the proficiency as an evolution, and simply take it as a feat. Esp. at low levels there is a lot of cool evolutions it can be given, and besides maybe PA the eidolon dont need feats. so you would be able to give it the +2 str evolution instead, wich is good.

I will shortly explain why they made that maximum attack rule, and the reason. As it is now (without cheezing the max attack rule) the eidolon is about as good at DPR as an equal level fighter, being better at lower levels and equal later. Before the limit on max attacks in the beta, an eidolon could easily post 2.5 times the damage of any fighter, being huge, and have a great AC meanwhile. So i would atleast think about it before you pick it. The summoner is not that UPm but with the cheeze he is the best DPR class in the game (or the eidolon is) by such a huge margin no one can follow. Just saying it might not be fun for the rest of your party. But if all is onboard for the 300 DPR eidolon at lvl 10 then be my guest.

Fun Fact about eidolons: an eidolon gives more dam at lvl 10 vs a lvl 10 mob than a fighter ever will. (except if he makes 4 crits in a round at lvl 20 vs the lvl 10 mob, then the fighter will be abit ahead, but not by much)

Scarab Sages

Honestly, I hadn't even thought of it that way. I certainly don't want to break the game for everyone else, so I'll tone it back down. The easily-broken nature of this game was something I was warned about when we decided to switch, so I'll have to pay more attention in the future.


Captnhaggis wrote:
Honestly, I hadn't even thought of it that way. I certainly don't want to break the game for everyone else, so I'll tone it back down. The easily-broken nature of this game was something I was warned about when we decided to switch, so I'll have to pay more attention in the future.

It isn't that the game is easily broken, just this particular class ability has an issue. Pathfinder has gone a long way to tone down many of the issues that existed in 3.5. Every game has loops holes, it is just a matter of how many or how large they are.


i completely agree. And even though i am in a lot of rules discussions on this forum, i dont think there is that many loop holes in the game. The only that comes to mind is this problem, which they themselves have stated is gonna be errataed. So this is way way better than 3.5 in my oppinion.

On a completely different note,i think you will have a fun time playing a summoner, they can definately still work from a balance question, and to me they are a cool class anyway. I like the conjurer wizard a bit more, but thats just me being wierd maybe.

I would like to leave you with some suggestions to the eidolon though, if you do still want to be in the upper echelons of melee dps classes. Look at APG feats, there is atleast a coupple must haves for eidolons. Also improved natural attack from the bestiary works fantastic. I would personally make an eidolon that only uses claws, as you then can take both imp. nat. attack, and the evolution to increase dam. Also reach and pushback on claws evolutions, as they will then work for all 3-7 claw attacks of the eidolon. Rend is also a nice feature evolution for ekstra dam, and if you only focus on claw attacks weapon focus aint bad either as a feat. Personally i would get the eidolon a shield feat too, and have him wear an enchanted shield at some point, but thats just becouse having 6 arms (and 2 legs) at lvl 20 leaves you with one limb that cant attack. so why not wear a shield in that. Also you have to make the eidolon large and huge ASAP, but that you probably already knew.

Hope you can use atleast some of the advice, and if you want more specifiks, i could probably draw up a feat/evolution build for a summoner as i would use it.

Scarab Sages

I want to thank everyone for their great advice on this, I personally think the whole idea of the Eidolon is a really cool and innovative class feature that I would love to play around with.

Unfortunately, my DM (after hearing my questions about the Eidolon and realizing that it's broken) has decided to ban the APG completely. So, so much for that. :P Maybe I'll give conjuration Wizard a try, to simulate the Summoner class.

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