So i had this friend of mine ask me a simple question, and i must admit that it left me wondering, so i ask you guys for a solution, if it already has been asked, plz direct me, as i cant seem to find it.
So basicly its 2 different questions.
1st:
As the bestiary states a character can attack with each limb he has a weapon in, but as unarmed strikes counts as "weapons", you can dual wield a sword and a fist. As it states under unarmed attacks in the core book, they are made with different limbs, so what is stopping a charecter from multiweapon fighting with 5 "weapons" say, 2 swords, his head and 2 legs?
2nd:
If an ork has the feat that grants a natural bite attack, then he will get a penalty just as if he was 2wp fighting, applyed to his greatsword and bite, as per rules. What if he is dual wielding swords, and thus already gets the penalty for fighting with 2 weapons, what happens when he makes a bite attack. Do the penalty's stack, or do they overlap? and if he can strike with 2 weapons and his bite, then why cant a monk use flurry of blows and a natural attack?
Im anxious to see if you guys can find any RAW on it, or if this stuff needs to be faq'd.
nicklas Læssøe wrote:
1st:
As the bestiary states a character can attack with each limb he has a weapon in, but as unarmed strikes counts as "weapons", you can dual wield a sword and a fist. As it states under unarmed attacks in the core book, they are made with different limbs, so what is stopping a charecter from multiweapon fighting with 5 "weapons" say, 2 swords, his head and 2 legs?
Even though unarmed strikes are considered weapons in the case of monks or if you get the feat, they are still not "natural" weapons for the sake of doing multiple attacks. This is also why you cannot apply feats from the bestiary to unarmed attacks if you're a monk. This means that you would have to follow the rules for two weapon fighting in this case and just make your attack with your sword and fist with the applicable penalties.
Quote: 2nd:
If an ork has the feat that grants a natural bite attack, then he will get a penalty just as if he was 2wp fighting, applyed to his greatsword and bite, as per rules. What if he is dual wielding swords, and thus already gets the penalty for fighting with 2 weapons, what happens when he makes a bite attack. Do the penalty's stack, or do they overlap? and if he can strike with 2 weapons and his bite, then why cant a monk use flurry of blows and a natural attack?
Under FoB in the monk section, it clearly states that monks cannot use natural attacks as part of their FoB. As for the orc using a weapon and making a bite attack, in the bestiary, it states that when you do such an attack you treat your natural attack as if it is a secondary attack, and you would take a -5 to your attack bonus for it. If the orc was attacking with two weapons and qualified for, and had the TWF feat, then I'd say that the bite attack is done at a -5 to attack bonus as well.
1:
But if you were able to wield 4 swords, you would still be able to make multi weapon fighting with them, getting 4 attacks and extra for high BAB. Why cant this be applied to unarmed attacks, as they are also weapons. I am also pretty sure you can use bestiary feats just the same as you use regular feats, ex improved natural attack works fine on monks.
2:
yes i agree that you would get the extra attack, but since it also states you get the same penalty as if using 2wp fighting, while wielding fx a greatsword and biting. what happens if you are getting that penalty already, from dual wielding anyway? do you then get -2 from dw and -2 extra for natural attack dw? or do they overlap so you only get one -2 for dw?
My question regarding monks is rather, i do know it states they cant combine natural attakcs and normal while using FoB, but if a fighter can dual wield his hands (wich is the same as FoB almost) and make a natural attack at the same time, then what is the reason the monk cant do it? other than it states it under FoB, why did they make that exception?
I had a nice long post typed out for you, and then my stupid internet went crappy and I didn't get to post it =(. Well, here's round two.
nicklas Læssøe wrote: 1:
But if you were able to wield 4 swords, you would still be able to make multi weapon fighting with them, getting 4 attacks and extra for high BAB. Why cant this be applied to unarmed attacks, as they are also weapons. I am also pretty sure you can use bestiary feats just the same as you use regular feats, ex improved natural attack works fine on monks.
Here that should answer your question. They errata'd it and mentioned that you cannot use those feats for unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes by themselves are not considered weapons unless you get the feat Improved Unarmed Strike. Once this feat is taken, you are considered armed and begin to do lethal damage. While I can't tell you for sure what the folks at Paizo were thinking, I can only give you my interpretation of the situation. When someone trains in the method of unarmed strikes, their whole body is considered a weapon, therefore, they can only make extra attacks with this "weapon" when their BAB allows them to.
Quote: 2:
yes i agree that you would get the extra attack, but since it also states you get the same penalty as if using 2wp fighting, while wielding fx a greatsword and biting. what happens if you are getting that penalty already, from dual wielding anyway? do you then get -2 from dw and -2 extra for natural attack dw? or do they overlap so you only get one -2 for dw?
If you look under natural attacks section in the core rule book (pg. 182), it states that natural attacks gets treated as if it is a secondary natural attack, getting a -5 penalty and only 1/2 str when used in conjuncture with a weapon. Furthermore, the weapon (main attack) is treated as if it was made with a light weapon in the off hand, and receives the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons (see table on pg. 202 in the core rule book). For instance, a with greatsword, you'd get a -4 penalty on the sword and a -5 penalty on the bite if you didn't have the Two Weapon Fighting feat. Likewise, if you did have the feat, you'd get a -2 penalty on the sword and a -5 penalty on the bite.
Quote: My question regarding monks is rather, i do know it states they cant combine natural attakcs and normal while using FoB, but if a fighter can dual wield his hands (wich is the same as FoB almost) and make a natural attack at the same time, then what is the reason the monk cant do it? other than it states it under FoB, why did they make that exception? As I stated above, I think it's because your body is considered one single "weapon." If you really wanted to use a natural weapon while making a lot of other attacks, I'd say make a fighter or something of the sort with TWF, ITWF, and GTWF feats. That way you can have all your attacks and a natural attack whenever you make a full-round attack.
Hope that helps.
ok that did explain something.
But what about a fighter dualwielding normal swords AND his unarmed strikes? aka getting 3 attacks per iterativ attack from BAB. If what you are saying that his whole body is considered a weapon, wich makes perfect sence, i cant see why he shouldnt be able to use 3 weapons and get multi attack feat chain instead of DW, using 2 swords and his bodys unarmed strikes.
Just saying this is at best a murky area of the PF core that i feel is missing something.
It says under the monks unarmed strike that they can make attacks with their feet. However it says nothing about this under normal improved unarmed strike. I'd say a monk with the multi weapon fighting chain could get the 3rd attack with his feet. However this seems kind of dumb. Your base attack would be lower for the whole chain and you would be making about the same amount of attacks as a FoB monk who spends a ki point. In addition the FoB monk has 3 extra feats to work with as he didn't waste them on the redundant multi-weapon fighting chain. He is also getting full strength on his hits (which will happen more often) and only has to deal with enchanting one weapon.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
A) Any of the standard player races cannot qualify for multi-weapon fighting as none of them have 3 or more hands.
B) There are no extra two-fighting penalties for combining weapon and natural attacks (beyond the primary natural attacks becoming secondary). Use the rules text in the bestiary not the core rules.
God knows why the haven't bother to errata the core rules to match, but there are numerous examples in the bestiary and other paizo products and none of them artifically apply two weapon fighting penalties to the use of manufactured weapons when combined with natural attack (unless they are using two or more manufactured weapons).
I really wish natural attacks and regular attacks had one rule set...
It seems like the only reason natural attacks have a different one is to make creatures stronger without needing to throw a feat at it. All it would take to make a cat get the bite/claw/claw progression with one full-round attack is multi-attack with looser prerequisites.
Then again, that would mean re-doing the CR of creatures like Hydras that would suddenly have a very very very nasty attack progression (fine by me, TBH).
</pseudo-rant>
ok i think i might have cought the jest of it, but i still feel like the rules a a bit vague on this particular subject.
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