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Hey all,
I'm going to be playing a Lion Shaman in an upcoming Serpent's Skull campaign. He's going to focus on melee combat, with spellcasting as a secondary function. I've read Treantmonk's "Spirit of the Beast" guide and taken some suggestions from it, although I simply can't bring myself to dump Int below 10. Working with a 15 point build meant I had to compromise on stats, but I'm pretty comfortable with what I've settled on.
What I'm looking for here is advice on future feat selections. My current plan is to take Power Attack at 3rd level and Natural Spell at 7th. The rest is a blank slate, although I'd like to fit Weapon Focus (claw) in at some point if possible. The Improved Overrun>>Charge Through chain looks promising for a "pounce druid" and I'm leaning that way. I've also considered dropping Eye for Talent to get my bonus feat back and taking Improved Unarmed Strike, followed by Improved Grapple and eventually Greater Grapple to gain maximum advantage from Grab later on. Seems like a pretty heavy up-front investment, though.
Here's what I've got so far:
Male Human Druid (Lion Shaman) 1
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +5
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DEFENSE
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AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15. . (+3 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 13 (1d8+4)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +3
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Club +3 (1d6+3/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +3 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Shortspear +3 (1d6+3/20/x2)
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STATISTICS
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Str 17, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Base Atk +0; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Toughness +3
Traits Boarded In the Mwangi Expanse, World Traveler: Diplomacy
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +0, Concentration: Druid +2, Diplomacy +4, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +3, Knowledge: Nature +6, Perception +5, Ride -1, Sense Motive +3, Stealth -1, Survival +7, Swim +1
Languages Common, Druidic, Polyglot
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Map Maker's Kit, Nature Sense (Ex), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Wild Empathy +0 (Ex)
Combat Gear Club, Dagger, Shortspear (2), Shield, Heavy Wooden, Wooden Armor
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Thanks for the reply. In this case, Precise Strike isn't a great option as it has a prerequisite of Dex 13. No problem at the moment, but as soon as I start wildshaping into a large creature I'll take a -2 Dex penalty and lose the use of the feat. Same problem with Dodge, actually.
I could boost my Dex to 15 at 4th level but I'd be nerfing my Str--which this build is heavily dependent on--in order to do so. I could also theoretically boost it right now, but only at the expense of dumping Int lower than I'm willing to go. I might be able to put my 8th level stat bump into Dex if I've managed to acquire a Headband of Inspired Wisdom by then, but if I haven't it will have to go into Wis so I can cast my 4th level spells.
So yeah, if I get the Headband I probably will bump Dex to 15 at 8th level, then grab Precise Strike at 9th (and maybe Dodge as well with my 9th level bonus feat).
I recently was working on building a melee-oriented Druid for my wife, and picked Toughness, Power Attack, and Precise Strike (Teamwork). Her animal companion has Toughness, Light Armor Proficiency, and Precise Strike (Teamwork).
You're a very brave person to play a melee druid on such a tight point buy game. They're incredibly MAD with the new polymorph rules, and it's gonna be a rough (but ultimately satisfying) road.
On top of some of the other advice here, I really have to go ahead and suggest that you grab Spell Focus (Conjuration) & Augment Summoning. You've got 9 levels of spells that are, thus far, only gaining use as buffs & heals. Those two feats turn a "meh" class feature into a powerful opening move. It also allows you access to some really solid debuffs in the way of animals you summon (+constitution increases abilities like poison) and allows you to contribute even more.
I realize you're a melee character, but I'd also recommend extend/quicken/rapid spell, to reduce the amount of time you spend casting and increase your opportunities to be in the thick of things. You *are* a full caster. Best to make the most of it. :D
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Hello Sean,
I considered taking the Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning combo but it just seems really expensive to me since I'll never gain any advantage from Spell Focus. With my barely adequate Wis my spell DCs are going to suck, so I plan never to cast any spells that allow a save in the first place. With that in mind, Spell Focus is just a feat tax I'd have to pay to get Augment Summoning and I frankly don't think it's worth it. Or rather, I'm not persuaded I can't get more bang for my feat buck with other choices. Would that combo really benefit me more, in the long run, than two combat feats?
I suppose what I really ought to consider in that case is whether I'd be better off dropping Eye for Talent and taking Spell Focus (Conjuration) with my reclaimed bonus feat, so that taking Augment Summoning would not seem to costly later. If I go that route however, I'd need to weigh that option against taking Improved Unarmed Strike (another essentially useless feat tax) with the bonus feat and grabbing Improved Grapple later on to make my wildshaped Grab attacks that much more formidable. It's hard to say which would be the more beneficial option. (Alas, the window of opportunity for doing either will be closed in just a few hours, since the campaign starts tonight).
The metamagic suggestions are valid and I really hadn't thought much about them, however I think I'd be more likely to pick those up after 10th level (especially quicken, which really isn't even useful until 9th). For Extend spell I'm hoping to pick up a Lesser Metamagic Rod, actually, even though Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang and possibly Longstrider are the only spells I can imagine using it on regularly.
I guess I should have emphasized in my first post that I don't necessarily want to choose my feats with an eye toward getting the biggest pay off at level 18-20, as I'm not certain I'll ever reach those levels (even assuming this character survives to the end of the AP). I'd rather choose the feats that will benefit me right away, yet also remain useful in the later stages of the campaign.
Thanks for the comments, you've given me a couple things to think about.
You're a very brave person to play a melee druid on such a tight point buy game. They're incredibly MAD with the new polymorph rules, and it's gonna be a rough (but ultimately satisfying) road.
On top of some of the other advice here, I really have to go ahead and suggest that you grab Spell Focus (Conjuration) & Augment Summoning. You've got 9 levels of spells that are, thus far, only gaining use as buffs & heals. Those two feats turn a "meh" class feature into a powerful opening move. It also allows you access to some really solid debuffs in the way of animals you summon (+constitution increases abilities like poison) and allows you to contribute even more.
I realize you're a melee character, but I'd also recommend extend/quicken/rapid spell, to reduce the amount of time you spend casting and increase your opportunities to be in the thick of things. You *are* a full caster. Best to make the most of it. :D
Standard array melee druid isn't horrible but it can be challenging.
Keep in mind that while strength is important you actually want a somewhat decent save DC if you are doing anything other than buffing as a caster. Further until you get your Lion form at fourth level you are probably going to need something to hold you over.
I think it's probably better to go with Str-15 Dex-12 Con-13 Int-10 Wis-16 Cha-8 for what you are aiming for. That way you have more spells and a better save DC until you get your war form.
Even for a caster druid, Spell Focus (Conjuration) is a feat tax. I think there are only a handfull of spells in the entire game that would benefit from it, and most of 'em aren't on the druid list. Augment Summoning is a very powerful feat and will serve you *very* well if you ever choose to do some summoning. Summoning is almost always a good option, and increases your flexibility tenfold.
The improved grapple line is another powerful option for a melee druid, too. Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat tax (lot of those for druids, it seems), but being able to change your size and form really helps out. Grapple is a powerful combat maneuver when you can get it to stick. And it's easily invalidated, so be careful. Some things are just too big, or have CMDs that are simply too high to overcome. And when you're working with a 3/4 BAB it starts to take its toll the higher you get.
In conclusion: Summoning = a powerful, feat taxed way to round out your melee character and provide additional options when you find your character is ineffective. Grappling = a powerful, feat taxed way to specialize your character into a role that won't always be viable but very effective when it is.
As for "Eye for talent," I'd drop it in favor of a feat. +2 to a stat isn't incredibly useful except to get Int 3 earlier than a standard druid could. And really, there are enough GOOD feats and too few skills early on that being stuck with the standard list isn't painful at all.
Considering the Lion Shaman is definitely geared towards being a pounce + rake charger I think investing in the grapple chain (especially with a 3/4 BAB) is kinda dubious. You are going to be using Bite/Claw/Claw natural weapons most of the time and you will have access to the grab special ability if you want to grapple + rake.
Spell Focus (Conjuration) + Augment Summoning are great for boosting summon nature ally spells. Those are great for a melee druid because they function as a force multiplier (druid+animal companion+ally is a potential for a ton of attacks and blocked charge lanes) and because summons don't need a high caster DC to be effective. That way you can focus on melee without being totally inept as a caster.
Later on you'll probably want weapon focus (claw) because it can apply to 4 natural attacks and probably power attack because even a modest power attack x 3-5 attacks can be really nice.
It's a shame there isn't a decent huge cat form though.
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I think I'm going to go the grapple route. I do appreciate your points regarding Augment Summoning and I know it is a powerful ability, and would synergize very well with the Lion Shaman's Totemic Summons class ability. If I were building a primary caster or even a 50/50 casting/melee build (although I suspect that would be the worst of both worlds) I would definitely go that route.
That said, my present character concept is totally aimed at being a wild shaping warrior and I want to see what I can do with that. I'm now leaning toward taking Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple and eventually Greater Grapple. While it's true that my CMB will not be on par with a fighter or monk, it will still be quite respectable. I'm planning to boost Strength with three of my 4 leveling-up increases (I'm not assuming I'll reach 20th level), and the Str bonus from wild shape will keep me right up there with the full BAB classes throughout the campaign. Also, as my primary war-form will have Grab all my grapple attempts will be effectively free.
Edited to add: Argh, I just re-read the Grab rules and realized that I'd forgotten about the "only against opponents at least one size category smaller" limitation. This may require another re-think. . .
I will heed at least part of your advice and take Quicken Spell at some point, probably 11th or 13th level. By then getting a couple of buffs off at the beginning of a boss fight without missing several rounds of combat will be a huge advantage.
Thanks for you input, it's helped me clarify my thinking on this character's direction.
In conclusion: Summoning = a powerful, feat taxed way to round out your melee character and provide additional options when you find your character is ineffective. Grappling = a powerful, feat taxed way to specialize your character into a role that won't always be viable but very effective when it is.
As for "Eye for talent," I'd drop it in favor of a feat. +2 to a stat isn't incredibly useful except to get Int 3 earlier than a standard druid could. And really, there are enough GOOD feats and too few skills early on that being stuck with the standard list isn't painful at all.
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You know, I typed my last post before seeing yours, and then I re-read the Grab rules. Now I'm reconsidering the grapple feat chain. I still want to focus on the warrior aspect of this character and choose the feats that will give me the greatest benefit in melee. If I don't go the grapple route there's no point in taking Improved Unarmed Strike, and unfortunately just about every other combat feat I want requires a +1 BAB which rules out taking them at 1st level. That effectively frees up my bonus feat--assuming I do indeed opt to drop Eye for Talent--for Spell Focus (conjuration), making Augment Summoning a viable option around 9th level.
So, I may well end up following Sean's and your advice and taking Augment Summoning and a metamagic feat or two, eventually. It's possible that Power Attack and Weapon Focus are the only combat feats I'm actually going to need.
Decisions, decisions. . .
Considering the Lion Shaman is definitely geared towards being a pounce + rake charger I think investing in the grapple chain (especially with a 3/4 BAB) is kinda dubious. You are going to be using Bite/Claw/Claw natural weapons most of the time and you will have access to the grab special ability if you want to grapple + rake.
. . .It's a shame there isn't a decent huge cat form though.
All From APG
Eldritch Claws Str 15, natural weapons, base attack Natural weapons treated as magic and silver
bonus +6
Aspect of the Beast Wild shape class feature Gain one of four bestial advantages
Rending Claws* Str 13, two claw attacks, base attack bonus +6 Deal 1d6 extra damage if both claws hit
Outflank* Base attack bonus +4 Gain +4 bonus on attack rolls when flanking
Precise Strike* Dex 13, base attack bonus +1 Deal +1d6 points of precision damage with melee attacks
Power Attack
Natural Spell
Craft Wounderous Item
Natural Boon Feat
Druid 17 Fighter 2 Ranger 1( For Track and Make up skill lose on the Fighter levels) Or Duid 16 Fighter 2 Barbian 2 This Build gives +16 BaB
Take the 2 Fighter levels at same time your pet get the Team Work Feat
feat so you can work together.
Let the Pet take Dodge Mobilty and Spring attack to set you up in flank
Lose some of the STR 14 For DEX 14 , WIS 14 and CON 13.
You and the Pet tag team as one unit he flanks/ trips/ Grappel and set you up. To Pile one at the end. Plan On having +2 Flank +2 Flank Feat, + 2 Prone (Tripped) Damage is there if get in to the flank.
Yes you need Stat verey much that take Craft Wounderous item. To help make them Stat Items at half price
Buy Belt of DEX by time you shift in to large Cat