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This seems somewhat broken
Aid allies: At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his armor class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Swift aid: As a swift action, you can attempt the aid another action, granting your ally either a +1 bonus on his next attack roll or a +1 bonus to his AC.
So the aid another action is being used as a swift action, giving +1 to AC or attack, and then additionally a +3 bonus to AC, attack, saving throw, or skill, is given from aid allies?
Some other discussions brought up that aid allies just increases the bonus of the aid another action by +1, but I wasn't aware you could use the aid another action for saving throws, so I would think otherwise.
This seems somewhat broken
Aid allies: At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his armor class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Swift aid: As a swift action, you can attempt the aid another action, granting your ally either a +1 bonus on his next attack roll or a +1 bonus to his AC.
So the aid another action is being used as a swift action, giving +1 to AC or attack, and then additionally a +3 bonus to AC, attack, saving throw, or skill, is given from aid allies?
Some other discussions brought up that aid allies just increases the bonus of the aid another action by +1, but I wasn't aware you could use the aid another action for saving throws, so I would think otherwise.
It does cost 1 feat and require you to take a specific string of class abilities so I'd also say nice but not broken. I reserve the right to say its broken until we find out how the below situation works out (and even then with the investment of feat, class and actions it could be okay for what you get versus what you could be doing).
Technically you can do that twice...
Swift Action - Swift Aid: +1 to hit or AC modified by Aid Allies (+3 AC, attack, Save or Skill)
Standard Action - Aid Another: +2 to hit or AC modified by Aid Allies (+3 AC, attack, Save or Skill)
I want to say they (the Aid Allies) won't stack but they can give bonuses to a different roll for each action... BUT
Aid another says "..Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack"
Nothing says "bodyguard" like a +9 to AC or +3 to AC and +6 to save
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I'd probably look at it in my games as you getting an additional +1 to aid attempts from Aid Allies, so Swift Aiding Dragon Cavalier would probably give +2 to those attempts.
You'd still be giving anyone who was flanking with you a +4 to hit just by standing somewhere armed and using a swift action.
I'd probably look at it in my games as you getting an additional +1 to aid attempts from Aid Allies, so Swift Aiding Dragon Cavalier would probably give +2 to those attempts.
You'd still be giving anyone who was flanking with you a +4 to hit just by standing somewhere armed and using a swift action.
As I said in my original post, I don't think this is the case because you can't aid another for a saving throw. Unless this is a typo in the ability and they only meant to put +3 to skills, AC, and attack, then it makes more sense to merely give a +1 to the use of aid another.
I'd probably look at it in my games as you getting an additional +1 to aid attempts from Aid Allies, so Swift Aiding Dragon Cavalier would probably give +2 to those attempts.
Except that isn't what the rules say, the feat specifically says you can perform the action "Aid Another" as a swift action and then goes to make an exception stating the bonus is in effect 1/2 what the normal bonus of Aid Another is (+1).
As the action is actually called out as "Aid Another" the full bonus of Aid Allies should be added.
As I said in my original post, I don't think this is the case because you can't aid another for a saving throw. Unless this is a typo in the ability and they only meant to put +3 to skills, AC, and attack, then it makes more sense to merely give a +1 to the use of aid another.
Whether or not Aid Another gives a bonus to saves, which it in fact can, (read further through the description of Aid Another)
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check.
doesn't mean that the bonus given by Aid Allies doesn't work. The ability overrides the normal rule when stated to. Because the ability states that it gives X Y or Z bonus in addition to a base ability, even though the "base" ability doesn't give the same type of bonus doesn't nullify the added bonus. Aid Allies modifies Aid Another with an additional benefit.
The ability does exactly what Aid Another does, it isn't a typo.
You can do that without using a swift action. Its called the Outflank teamwork feat.
The idea that aid another actions could be broken baffles me.
The total numeric value is high I agree, but you also have to think about what else that character is giving up to do so. That is why I'm on the fence about it being "broken," it is a fully armored full BAB class that has other class abilities which use standard actions and swift actions. By doing this they are in effect taking themselves out of the fight which means they are really not living up to their potential. It is a very nice ability but so is a full round attack action.
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Except that isn't what the rules say, the feat specifically says you can perform the action "Aid Another" as a swift action and then goes to make an exception stating the bonus is in effect 1/2 what the normal bonus of Aid Another is (+1).
As the action is actually called out as "Aid Another" the full bonus of Aid Allies should be added.
I would respectfully request that you do not tell me what I can and can not do when I am behind the GM's screen. How it works in your group is fine, but I think a +2 bonus is more then reasonably enough for a swift action.
I can see how DM could rule either way, I just find the wording to be confusing. In this case I'm the character and I'm a bit of a munchkin so I hope my DM rules in favor of my original post. :P
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I would respectfully request that you do not tell me what I can and can not do when I am behind the GM's screen. How it works in your group is fine, but I think a +2 bonus is more then reasonably enough for a swift action.Except that isn't what the rules say, the feat specifically says you can perform the action "Aid Another" as a swift action and then goes to make an exception stating the bonus is in effect 1/2 what the normal bonus of Aid Another is (+1).
As the action is actually called out as "Aid Another" the full bonus of Aid Allies should be added.
I don't think he meant any offense... but you must keep in mind that ultimately since this post is in the rules question forum, he is trying to figure out how exactly by RAW this works which is a how system should be designed... all inclusive of people's games with the additional caveat of Rule #0 for the GMs of home run games... but ultimately this needs to be designed and understood in an all inclusive fashion in the rules forum.
Anyway my opinion... looks sick... kinda awesome... not really broken in my opinion.
I would respectfully request that you do not tell me what I can and can not do when I am behind the GM's screen. How it works in your group is fine, but I think a +2 bonus is more then reasonably enough for a swift action.Except that isn't what the rules say, the feat specifically says you can perform the action "Aid Another" as a swift action and then goes to make an exception stating the bonus is in effect 1/2 what the normal bonus of Aid Another is (+1).
As the action is actually called out as "Aid Another" the full bonus of Aid Allies should be added.
xevious573, hit the nail on the head. We're in the rules forum and the way the book states it works is what I'm restricting my posts to. If you would like to run it otherwise and house rule it, please feel free but when posting in the rules forum my only concern is the actual game play. Your original post was not following the rules as written in the book I politely corrected you.
I can see how DM could rule either way, I just find the wording to be confusing. In this case I'm the character and I'm a bit of a munchkin so I hope my DM rules in favor of my original post. :P
Normally bonuses from the same source don't stack, but as the aid another bonuses are called out to stack...
There is no doubt that the swift action will be modified by the Order of the Dragon, so you get that +1 and +3 as per the rules in the book.
Two things to be aware of though, if the person is doing something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the swift action you use to aid them causes you to provoke as well. The other is with the saving throw, Aid Another says you can help someone "such as when they are affected by a spell" so it might only be useful on those rare occasions when an effect is ongoing and allows for a saving throw after the initial save. Like hold person or another spell that allows you to throw off the effect after another successful save is made. Because of the lack of information on it in the book, it is pretty much a DM call.
Because of the lack of information on it in the book, it is pretty much a DM call.
I agree with that, "such as when they are affected by a spell" is very vague, but it does hint at the possibility that you can aid another with saving throws. However if you could aid another with saving throws mechanic wise I would think the aid allies ability would override the bonus from swift aid and you would just gain a +3 to AC or Attack as a swift action, and a +3 to saves or skills with whatever action it would take for those uses of aid another. Still a good ability, you usually have enough time out of combat to not have to worry about how much time the aid another action takes up.
I agree with that, "such as when they are affected by a spell" is very vague, but it does hint at the possibility that you can aid another with saving throws.
Because of the lack of information on it in the book, it is pretty much a DM call.
It doesn't hint at it, it out right states it ;) What it doesn't say is what the limits are to that. The only obvious thing I could come up with was the example I gave, spell is in effect and you help the person try to break free. However it could also be reasoned that if you readied an action you could ready an Aid Another for when a character was going through a Wall of Fire.
However if you could aid another with saving throws mechanic wise I would think the aid allies ability would override the bonus from swift aid and you would just gain a +3 to AC or Attack as a swift action, and a +3 to saves or skills with whatever action it would take for those uses of aid another. Still a good ability, you usually have enough time out of combat to not have to worry about how much time the aid another action takes up.
The two ways to rule it are:
1) It is a bonus gained from Aid Another, if so it all stacks.2) You are gaining the bonus from Aid Another and another bonus from Aid Allies, if so the Aid Another and Swift Aid stack (explicitly stated to stack with each other), the Aid Allies doesn't stack with itself. So you end up choosing a different option for each of the "Aid Allies" instances so nothing is wasted.
As I mentioned the ability requires the Cavalier to basically be doing nothing, sub optimal given the abilities they have (BAB alone means this is a poor choice of a standard action). It also doesn't scale up quickly (8th, and 6 levels after) so the bonus is relatively stable and even double dipping means that it isn't outrageous at the levels it will be available. I personally would rule they stack in my own games as the highest the bonus could ever be is +13 (2+1+5+5) at 20th level, at the cost of a standard action and swift action. Though to be completely honest the best use of the ability is probably to target 2 people to boost their full round attacks. Damage wise getting 2 sets of full round attacks to hit is better than 1 normally.