After I finally managed to stay in one country long enough, my grou is progressing through the Runelords adventure path and recently hit 6th level. Now there's a bit of downtime, some items have been sold, rewards have been given, and it's item ordering time…
As a DM (and even as a player), I never liked PC crafting and the 3.x item economy. If you've got the appropriate crafting skills (mostly Wondrous Items & Arms and Armor), you can sell your loot for half price and pay half price for your materials, so once you've got a couple of days free, you can create whatever you like. Which usually results in player equipped with their weapons and armor of choice, and the usual bonus belts, tiaras and cloaks. The kind of stuff pregens tend to have. Or in other words: Deep "meh" territory.
After perusing the boards, it seems that the item creation rules are quite lenient, basically every open question was ruled in favor of the players (5+DC, taking 10, CL no requirement).
I wanted to keep this Pathfinder campaign mostly house-rule-free, and two players already got their item creation feats (and then there's the Arcane Archer with his bonded bow). So I was wondering how your groups treat this.
Possible options I can think of (but which don't excite me a lot)
- Keep downtime short. About as unfair as sundering and stealing their items. Also, 1-20 lvl within six months is a wee bit ridiculous.
- The aforementioned "Fire Giant Smash!". Just not fair to the players.
- Keeping the loot down. Monsters often don't need their equipment as much. Still, I want the players to have exciting items, having none at all isn't better than having boring ones.
- Keeping the loot up. If they get quite mighty gimmicks, they can't just sell it, and even if they would, they wouldn't be able to produce stuff that's as powerful (not sure about the latter)
- Introducing some kind of silly "Thassilonian Power Rune Gem" system, i.e. they can take parts of items they wouldn't be able to make on their own. So at least their weapons, armor etc. would have some parts that isn't totally of their choosing and has a legacy of its own.
- Just live with this "gamist" part of the system and get back to AD&D for the next campaign…
Sing me your sorrows, fellow DMs!
From what I've experienced, the most simple, universally accepted and impact-free solution (on the system as a whole) is to remove the bonus items from the game and give all of these bonuses for free at a regular rate following the typically allocated WBL.
- OUT +X Stats item, IN permanent raise to stats.
- OUT rings of protection, IN inherent bonus to AC every 4th or 5th levels or so.
- OUT cloaks of resistance, IN inherent bonus to saving throws.
Etc.
So with the basis covered, the players can decide to keep the "flavourful items" they stumble upon and see them as something else than gift certificates.
Not my favorite solution personally, but definitively the least disruptive as far as houserules go.
'findel
When I DM, I'd much rather have the PCs craft their own items than try to guess which specific items they'd like, or keep track of which item slots they already have filled. But crafting rarely gets going during the early levels -- in the Runelords game we're running now, the PCs have just reach 7th level and are contemplating making their first items other than scrolls -- so I have to supply them one way or another.
Magic item shops are arguably the silliest part of D&D economy, given the small number of people who can afford to buy anything more expensive than a potion or scroll, so I try to keep those kinds of transactions to a minimum.
To keep the "meh" factor down, I supply the characters with magic items that aren't especially powerful, but nevertheless interesting or useful enough that they'll happily take these instead of what seems to be the standard adventurer's kit:
ring of protection
bracers of armor
belt of strength
gloves of dexterity
cloak of resistance
amulet of natural armor
(Honestly, in the last 3.x campaign our group played we got so many of those items in treasure over time we had tricked out mounts, familiars and animal companions and still sold what seemed like dozens as surplus.)
Super Genius Games Loot 4 Less series is a good source of items like this, as are Rite Publishing's A Dozen Armor & Shield Magical Properties and 101 Magical Weapon Properties.
Yeah, they'll eventually get some of the standard items but at least this mixes it up a bit.
If you've got the appropriate crafting skills (mostly Wondrous Items & Arms and Armor), you can sell your loot for half price and pay half price for your materials, so once you've got a couple of days free, you can create whatever you like. Which usually results in player equipped with their weapons and armor of choice, and the usual bonus belts, tiaras and cloaks. The kind of stuff pregens tend to have. Or in other words: Deep "meh" territory.
As a GM, I like to give players a "non-meh" version of those items. I.e., if there's a wizard in the party, I might give out a headband of intelligence +2 that can also cast True Strike 1/day and also gives a +2 bonus on Perception checks, calling it Gaullimaufrey's Tiara of Keen Wits. Much less likely to be sold for scrap, in my opinion.
There are a couple of things I can think of - one of which starts with banning the item creation feats for anything other than disposables. That puts magic item distribution back in your hands like it was for 1e and 2e, when PCs had a funky array of oddball items they managed to find and keep.
If that's not OK with your players, and since they're already getting the feats, that's what it sounds like - things may be a bit more challenging.
One tactic I'm trying is treating the deflection, natural armor, and resistance bonus items (rings, amulets, cloaks) like magic weapons and armor. In order for a ring to have a magical property, it must also come with a deflection bonus of at least +1. The only rings with just a deflection bonus are limited to +1. So, in order to have a ring of elemental resistance, for example, the ring must also have at least a deflection bonus of +1 and for a ring to a have a deflection bonus of +2 or better, it must also have another magical property.
I hope this will have a couple of effects - it will generally increase the cost of magic rings (and amulet slot items and cloaks) but also encourage the use of interesting magic items in those slots because there will no longer be competition between a cloak of elvenkind and a cloak of resistance. They are one and the same. Now it's a +x cloak of elvenkind or a +x ring of the ram.
Another DM I play with only allows crafting of charged items using the item creation rules. He allows pretty much anything to be charged, though, including saving throw boosts and so on. Permanent magic items need to be individually made with a specific ritual and then he'll work up the item's full details based on the way the player described the ritual. You get some real surprises that way, but each permanent magic item is certainly special.
In this system, he has also devised a couple levels of masterworkishness. There's the basic but other levels may increase a weapon's damage or even provide a minor amount of fortification to armor.
From what I've experienced, the most simple, universally accepted and impact-free solution (on the system as a whole) is to remove the bonus items from the game and give all of these bonuses for free at a regular rate following the typically allocated WBL.
- OUT +X Stats item, IN permanent raise to stats.
- OUT rings of protection, IN inherent bonus to AC every 4th or 5th levels or so.
- OUT cloaks of resistance, IN inherent bonus to saving throws.Etc.
So with the basis covered, the players can decide to keep the "flavourful items" they stumble upon and see them as something else than gift certificates.
Not my favorite solution personally, but definitively the least disruptive as far as houserules go.
'findel
I'm thinking of doing the same thing. I might want it to be a bonded item for everyone, but after a while it would get a bit silly with the fighter with his ancestral sword, the bard with his heirloom lute, etc.
This would make it all a lot simpler.
Killing the "meh" feel of magic items is easy. However it does take a little work on the part of both the GMs AND players. This ought to solve all your problems without the need for needless hourserules. Magic items are only as "meh" as you make them.
... As a DM (and even as a player), I never liked PC crafting and the 3.x item economy. ...
A couple questions: Do your PLAYERS like the item economy? If the items they are making are 'meh' to you, are they 'meh' to the players themselves who are making them?
IMO since they have the abilty to make their own items, maybe they are making the items they actually want. If the items are 'meh' or boring, well that is hardly your fault. Maybe they are very excited about what they are making and to them they are very cool. If your players are making boring items well feel free to give them examples of exciting ones, but make sure that they are seeing the item situation the same way you are.
I know that I take item creation feats to make interesting and themed items for myself and my group so I don't have to rely on the adventuring 'lottery' to hope I get a good piece of gear or that item special item that really complements my character or play style.
Feel free to add 'craft drops' to monster treasure that your players with craft feats recognise as ingredients to make rare and interesting powers that cannot be done any other way.
Or even get more in depth with your crafting rules and have specific material formula that your characters have to gather components for to make magic items of X GP value or higher.
Another thing you can do, and it is a lot of work but it can be very fun, is state that taking an item creation feat gives you 30 or so 'Creation Recipes' of the most common magic items and work on a list that each player gets when they take the feat. You choose hald the items or effects and the player chooses the othere half. If they want to make things off their known recipe list they will need to do modest research with minor cash expediture and appropriate time spent to research a new 'item recipe'. Once they have it they know it and can trade it to other craftes.
Sort of like in some worlds, only the dwarves know how to work mithril, or only one kingdom has discovered how to make Warforged, etc.
This opens up trade and adventure opportunities where they seek out famous craftsmen and artificers to trade with or learn from.
There is a lot you can do to make it all more interesting.
I also try to drive in the “non-meh” direction too.
I mostly apply crafting over stores.
I can also mention that bypassing the "1.5 cost multiple item function" creation if the functions are those of the "boring-basics" can help the "tasty-magic-item concept" being crafted. But I like the follow-the-base-bonus-to-grant-power of Bill Dunn.
I also allow found items to be the "supplies" to craft other items of similar nature or proper fluff. Ex.: Multiple +1 Ogre Hooks used as the material (only the enchantment's worth is considered) to enchant +1 and "Bane: Giant" on a weapon.
I also try to included the Karma house rule where investments in non-boosting charater valued area (get your grandma taken proper care of, have the village-mill repaired, lose money gambling for fun, get the "right" clothes, get a great tatoo, etc.) can bring the bonuses that the "boring-basics" would otherwise cover. I have some Cost,Item-Slot, Craft-feat and Availability uncertainties for that option.
Killing the "meh" feel of magic items is easy. However it does take a little work on the part of both the GMs AND players. This ought to solve all your problems without the need for needless hourserules. Magic items are only as "meh" as you make them.
Nice article, but it requires learned sages who can recite eloquent histories and succeed on their Appraise checks. It also assumes that there aren't bards running around succeeding on their Bluff checks, taking toothpicks and selling them as splinters of the true cross.
After a while, the pragmatists in the party are going to realize that the great sword forged by the great wizard for the great hero who lost it in the great battle with the great dragon and only recently recovered from the great hoard is still just a magic sword +1. Yes, it has a more interesting history than the +1 magic sword for sale at the magic shop next door, but no more intrinsic usefulness. Also, if they find the bones of the great hero and resurrect him, they may find he's a perfectly ordinary, if brave, 1st level fighter who died a long while ago and then had the legend grow up around him after a bard wrote a song about him that was taken up as the national anthem of a nation that grew up later.
The great hero? He'd happily ditch that sword he got from the local wizard for something that's more powerful. Hell, the new sword that failed him and then was sat on by the magic lizard that killed him for three hundred years? Who needs that?
Talking to one of my players they seemed interested in having the players action describe the fate of the magic item. As the players get to higher levels you can have bards start to tell tales about what they did when they come in or their items.
Wealthy knights or other royalty might try to take storied items for themselves and their own heritage in the game world and to consolidate your power. Allowing upgrades could make this contnious.
Yes con men would make this bad. Also selling your players things from con men will likely piss them off. I have had an npc con another npc who hired the pcs. Will this style of play work in an area like DAggermark full of scoundrels where you would probabaly be lied to.
Magic items are only as "meh" as you make them.
That's the issue, *I* don't make them anymore. It's easy to have some interesting backstory about your magic weapon, if you've lifted it out of the tom of the chained elven maidens, but if it's some sword you bought in the market and which your team cleric chanted over for two days, that kinda takes the myth out of the magic. Never mind that even with narrative features, you're worse off. If one guy is supplying all their armor and weaponry, there's really no need for fine distinctions between the source of attack and damage bonuses: It hits more often and harder because Lord Pelor guides them.
Never mind that this is all fine and dandy if items are few in number, but if everyone is carrying belts, cloaks boots etc, it all becomes a blur. Knowing and listing the backstory of all your 19 currently equipped items isn't flavorful, it's tedious.
A couple questions: Do your PLAYERS like the item economy? If the items they are making are 'meh' to you, are they 'meh' to the players themselves who are making them?
That's not easily answered. At least two of my players despise the item system, as they don't want to be defined by their magic items. And all of them liked the situations that the powers and abilities of the magic items in our previous Greyhawk campaign dragged us into.
On the other hand, nobody likes to lose. Sometimes 3E is a bit mechanical, and you actually do gain more from a fanned out armor boosting set (amulet, ring, armor) than from investing the same amount of money in one piece of armor – or not selling said armor to get the item set. I think that playing WoW with all that secondary crafting character hooplah caused some damage, too.
There's always some kind of compromise between sheer gaming superiority and role-playing (nobody wants to play the warrior-accountants of doom). That's why I'm going to sit down and talk with my players about that – and why I asked about input and suggestions for said talk here. Thank you all, this has been very helpful this far.
At least with the Runelords campaign, I've got lots of humanoid opponents. So stat boosters kinda cancel themselves out, and if they're a bit behind on that scale, it doesn't really matter too much. This is worse once demons, devils and dragons are the usual opponents and you have to match inborn powers with magical gadgets.
I think we would probably achieve a lot, if we just avoid creating too many items. Upgrading actually isn't a problem, then at least people won't throw away their perfectly fine mythical honorblades for the mythical honorblade that's a wee bit sharper.
I have the same distaste for "default" items. The item that most clearly represents this problem in my mind is the Amulet of Natural Armor. Here we have an item which exists only to provide a bonus that can overlap, with no evocative description and what is possible the least likely name of any "wondrous" item that was ever devised. It is literally named after the bonus it grants.
In keeping with my policy on cure (and other) potions, at first I thought about banning them outright to punish their boringness, then I thought about changing their rules to make them more interesting. I also considered just treating them as more rare than they actually are, etc. I considered a lot of things.
In the end, the solution for magic item banality is to embrace it so forcefully that it becomes evocative. Add description as needed, but also, if these items are so commonplace they will worm their way into the very culture. Cure potions can be used as currency in any nation.
The amulet of natural armor, or "dragonscale amulet" as it is always known in my game, physically transmutes your skin into hard scales. This is item is so common as a basic form of magical protection that this process doesn't directly affect social interaction, except as a mark of wealth and aggression (if activated).
Often times, simply imagining what a world with these items in it would be like is the solution, especially with common magic items. People don't refer to swords as +1, +2, etc, but nevertheless the crusaders at the world-wound need to know the level of their weapon's enhancement as a matter of logistics! What terms would you imagine they use? I have the crusaders evaluate weapons based on the type of damon they can wound, so one might look to purchase a "demonworth" blade. Another method I've used is to sort weapons and armor by the "rank" of the caster who created it, so you might have an apprentice sword (+1), a knave sword (+2), a jack sword (+3), a journeyman sword (+4), and a master sword (+5, zelda shoutout).
In my experience, you're best off taking a hard look at the item and how it would leave its mark on the culture, especially if it would be prevalent amongst the richer non-PC classes. You can describe your way out of this mess, and it doesn't have to come in the form of "high-art" roleplaying or quick thinking... just the kind of world-design that some people (like myself) happen to enjoy.
Good Luck!
I guess my experience differs from most in this area as a dm. Luckily I guess nobody has ever tried to abuse crafting in my games, but I'm fairly lenient about people getting specific gear at shops. I do play high magic games though, and as for their weapons they are typically custom made for them at shops... I enjoy this because the characters in many cases identify with their weapon and get what they want. Sure I could hand out a sword forged for a long dead hero by a local wizard (which I've done)... or they could have their local wizard build them one or forge it themselves. I've had players with characters that literally made their weapon into a legend in my setting.
While I think it can be cool to give out historical loot and I'm definitely for it, unless your players are attempting to desrtroy game balance through crafting I'd just let them do it. As for crafting time, I'd work up some form of houserules for the time it takes so things don't get bogged down. Also if your players feel like they have to craft to get the gear they need for survival you might adjust your loot to fit into that loot but give it a unique history, granted this takes some work on your part though you can always ask players what kind of gear they might be severely lacking. Especially for miscellaneous gear like rings and cloaks.
If you want, you can run the game in a way that only certain things are available in a shop. Another tactic I used is that the shop keeper wasn't interested in the item that the pc's wanted to sell cause he didn't think anyone else would come along and buy it, it was an obscure role playing item not neccessarily a powergame item.
So, yesterday we had our little talk, and as so often, I was a bit too worried after all. Apart from some ideas of getting Create Staves at one point in time, my players don't want to focus too much on item creation, apart from upgrading weapons and armors. We had a nice talk about how we want to treat it, and in the end we are going by the availability rules for items, which means that in most cities they won't be able to buy a lot of stuff (and AFAIK it's 75% even for items below the threshold), so it's keeping loot and forming alliances with factions that have semi-powerful casters. I already have one player who now opposes the political stance of the rest of the party, because one mayoral candidate has someone at hand who can get him his beloved archery items…
Also, we agreed that as a general rule it's preferred to upgrade weapons and most armor, so that most of their military equipment at least has some background story already. If they want to create something new, we'll try to make it an event, with the party getting some prerequisite components, the party smith crafting himself and then the cleric enchanting it.
Strangely enough, we now also have house rules about crafting, because the current ones are a bit too lenient *for them* (Have I said that I really like my current group yet?). So why a caster level might not be an absolute prerequisite, it still determines the DC (apart from graded items like pearls of power), and as with other optional prerequisites, it you don't have it, it costs you a +5. This makes things more challenging, so either you're actually a very powerful caster, or you're a specialized crafting wizard. Wouldn't have dared to suggest that myself…
Apart from that, our crafting cleric insisted that every item he made/upgraded now bears the symbol of Pelor, his god. Now they look like a church-sponsored adventuring party, which will probably create quite some reputation, and some of the members who believe in different things (our Druid, for example), will probably get something different if it's available to them.
Now it's just up to me to go through Hook Mountain Massacre and spice some of the items up a bit… (a few of them are a bit bland, and the setting is a bit too modern for my tastes, too many rapiers, clockworks etc.)