| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This post suggests a new use of the Sense Motive skill. Hopefully it can create a more varied and flavorful environment for stealth.
Sense Distraction: You can use this skill to determine the degree to which somebody is paying attention; on a successful check you determine a moment when the target is considered distracted, allowing you to make use of stealth as normal for when you are not being observed. The DC for this action is normally 15 but is modified in a number of ways, as shown below. If you fail the check you do not find a momentary lapse in the target’s attention but are otherwise unaffected.
Action: Using Sense Motive to determine distraction is a standard action.
Special: You may sense distraction as a swift action, doing so doubles the DC for the check.
Design notes: This use of the ability does not allow you to ignore stealth checks, it merely provides you with a means by which you can make use of stealth checks under conditions which normally do not allow it. The target does not suffer a special penalty to perception from this skill use, it merely allows you to attempt to stealth when you otherwise would not be able to.
- Target is preoccupied, -5
- Target is guarding or on watch, +5
- Target is alert, +5
- Target is paying attention to you, +5
- Favorable conditions, -2
- Unfavorable conditions, +2
- Observe target for at least a minute, -5
- Multiple targets, use DC for highest target and add +2 for each other target
- As a swift action, double resulting DC
Sense Distraction (base DC 15), DC modifier
Some examples, to round off the post:
Susi Swiftfoot (Sense Motive skill of +16) is hiding at the entrance to a hall, two guards are on the other side, about 30ft away.
1. She wants to slip away through the open entrance without being noticed. She takes a standard action to sense distraction (2 targets on guard duty results in a DC of 15 + 5 + 2 = 22); she rolls an 8, which together with her +16 gives her a sense motive check of 24 which is sufficient to react to the moment where both guards look at a curvy maid passing their way. She gets a 34 on her stealth check which easily covers her from the perception checks of the guards as she slips through the entrance and away.
2. She wants to attack, but use an opportune moment to get the jump on one of them. She needs to cover a lot of ground and still have time to attack, so she uses swift actions to try and respond to even the slightest distraction in her targets. The DC is doubled (resulting in 2 * (15 + 5 + 2) = 44) which she cannot make; but after a minute of observation in which she successfully keeps hiding in her current position she gets used to their rhythm and the check gets easier (2 * (15 + 5 + 2 – 5) = 34); she can make this check and after a few rounds of observation she rolls a 19 which results in a check of 35, enough to catch the moment both guards are laughing at some joke – she dashes forward, her dagger is the silent death as she rolls her stealth check…
*Dotted*
Very nice write-up you have here. Looking forward to others opinions and discussions.
my only concern is that static DCs eventually become really easy as one gets higher in levels. What about using the target's will save?
my only concern is that static DCs eventually become really easy as one gets higher in levels. What about using the target's will save?
Or perhaps use the opponents Wisdom modifier or use it as an opposed Perception check?
my only concern is that static DCs eventually become really easy as one gets higher in levels. What about using the target's will save?
Well, I thought about it originally and decided against it for this reason: the actual opposed check is performed as the stealth-vs-perception check; the sense motive (distraction) check only offers the character the opportunity to attempt a stealth check.
But I think we can accommodate it as follows, change DC modifiers slightly:
- Target is paying attention to you, +Will Save of the target
The intention of sense distraction is not that you should be able to stand in front of the target and wait for it to look away; typically it should apply when trying to move stealthily in a situation where the target is not specifically aware of you, but lighting and cover are not favorable for stealth.
Note that the action cost, a standard action, is pretty restrictive - as it only allows for a single move action (typically at half-speed). You need to make it to a safe place (say cover) within that limited movement since the target will be able to see you if you end your turn out in the open.
The DC gets very prohibitive when attempting to do this as a swift action: 2 guards that are on high alert (alarms are ringing) end up as a DC = 2 * (15 + 5 + 5 + 2) = 54. That is not a DC that a character can just shake out without effort. Even when observing them for a minute the DC is 44; which is very hard to achieve even at quite high levels.
my only concern is that static DCs eventually become really easy as one gets higher in levels. What about using the target's will save?Well, I thought about it originally and decided against it for this reason: the actual opposed check is performed as the stealth-vs-perception check; the sense motive (distraction) check only offers the character the opportunity to attempt a stealth check.
But I think we can accommodate it as follows, change DC modifiers slightly:
- Target is paying attention to you, +Will Save of the target
Perfect! nice design. I will definitely be using this :D
I like it. I don't mind the static DC because you still have to Stealth vs. Perception afterward, it restricts movement speed and it works. I'll probably be testing it next week if you want, I'll post results.
I like it. I don't mind the static DC because you still have to Stealth vs. Perception afterward, it restricts movement speed and it works. I'll probably be testing it next week if you want, I'll post results.
Thanks a lot, please do. I'm keen to hear feedback from play for this :)
Please also try the "Target is paying attention to you, +Will Save of the target" DC modifier, it does make more sense to me this way and allows for a bit of scaling too.
I'll probably playtest both and pick the best one. I haven't tried running a good sneaking adventure yet simply because... you can't do it under the rules. And my current group is doing a pirate adventure I'm making up so good time as any for it. After all, all pirates must fight ninjas.
Update: subtle changes to the modifier for target paying attention to you, as well as a bit more explanation of what exactly that means.
This post suggests a new use of the Sense Motive skill. Hopefully it can create a more varied and flavorful environment for stealth.
Sense Distraction: You can use this skill to determine the degree to which somebody is paying attention; on a successful check you determine a moment when the target is considered distracted, allowing you to make use of stealth as normal for when you are not being observed. The DC for this action is normally 15 but is modified in a number of ways, as shown below. If you fail the check you do not find a momentary lapse in the target’s attention but are otherwise unaffected.
Action: Using Sense Motive to determine distraction is a standard action.
Special: You may sense distraction as a swift action, doing so doubles the DC for the check.
Design notes: This use of the ability does not allow you to ignore stealth checks, it merely provides you with a means by which you can make use of stealth checks under conditions which normally do not allow it. The target does not suffer a special penalty to perception from this skill use, it merely allows you to attempt to stealth when you otherwise would not be able to.
- Target is preoccupied, -5
- Target is guarding or on watch, +5
- Target is alert, +5
- Target is paying attention to you, +5
- Target is trying to keep its attention on you, +Wisdom modifier of target
- Favorable conditions, -2
- Unfavorable conditions, +2
- Observe target for at least a minute, -5
- Multiple targets, use DC for highest target and add +2 for each other target
- As a swift action, double resulting DC
Sense Distraction (base DC 15), DC modifier
Note: A target “paying attention to you” refers to the target seeing you. A target that merely knows or suspects that you are around somewhere imposes unfavorable conditions, but it does not count as paying attention to you. Once a target is paying attention to you, and trying to keep attention on you (as well as being on guard, alert, etc), it will generally be more effective to create a diversion with a Bluff than to wait for a moment of distraction with Sense Motive.
Some examples, to round off the post:
Susi Swiftfoot (Sense Motive skill of +16) is hiding at the entrance to a hall, two guards are on the other side, about 30ft away.
1. She wants to slip away through the open entrance without being noticed. She takes a standard action to sense distraction (2 targets on guard duty results in a DC of 15 + 5 + 2 = 22); she rolls an 8, which together with her +16 gives her a sense motive check of 24 which is sufficient to react to the moment where both guards look at a curvy maid passing their way. She gets a 34 on her stealth check which easily covers her from the perception checks of the guards as she slips through the entrance and away.
2. She wants to attack, but use an opportune moment to get the jump on one of them. She needs to cover a lot of ground and still have time to attack, so she uses swift actions to try and respond to even the slightest distraction in her targets. The DC is doubled (resulting in 2 * (15 + 5 + 2) = 44) which she cannot make; but after a minute of observation in which she successfully keeps hiding in her current position she gets used to their rhythm and the check gets easier (2 * (15 + 5 + 2 – 5) = 34); she can make this check and after a few rounds of observation she rolls a 19 which results in a check of 35, enough to catch the moment both guards are laughing at some joke – she dashes forward, her dagger is the silent death as she rolls her stealth check…
I didn't post before, but I flagged it for FAQ yesterday. Honestly, without full adjustment to the existing stealth nightmare - THIS is a really, really simple, inobtrusive, and minimal way to adjust the whole skill set to allow for some of the most highly contentious circumstances of using the skill.
Great ideas! I listed it so I can always hop back easy, too. ;-)
True, but I *think* it's more trying to play with the "make a distraction/bluff" rules for allowing a stealth attempt. Essentially sort of like waiting for the distraction to take place - if you follow?
Stated a different way, "the rogue isn't looking to distract the guard him/her self so much as waiting for *something* to distract the guard and grant the rogue and opportunity to strike."
Make sense?
@LazarX:
The Speaker in Dreams is on the money - it is quite rare for anybody to pay attention to one thing exclusively for any prolonged period of time; being able to notice when someone is not fully there and taking advantage of it, that is what it is all about.
However, you are also correct in noting that sometimes just waiting for the opportunity will require stealth-vs-perception rolls. In the examples above (in the OP) Susi Swiftfoot may have to wait a number of rounds before she can sense a suitable distraction. Those rounds do not pass for free - depending on the circumstances she will have to make stealth checks to remain hidden. She *currently* is in legal hiding, and can cautiously observe the guards - but she needs to maintain her hiding place and wait for an opportune time to move out again.
That said, the skill use at least gives the possibility for Susi to stealth out again (at least without having to wait that the guards abandon their posts).
* Target is paying attention to you, +5
* Target is trying to keep its attention on you, +Wisdom modifier of target
I'd like some clarification on just how these two are different?
I'd like some clarification on just how these two are different?
* Target is paying attention to you, +5
* Target is trying to keep its attention on you, +Wisdom modifier of target
With pleasure. From the description:
Note: A target “paying attention to you” refers to the target seeing you. A target that merely knows or suspects that you are around somewhere imposes unfavorable conditions, but it does not count as paying attention to you.
In other words:
1. A merchant seeing you walk by his stall is aware of you and is considered to be "paying attention to you". +5 to DC
2. If he additionally knows that you are a local pick-pocket he will want to pay closer attention to you and not lose you from his sight. +Wisdom mod to DC (as well as the basic +5 for him seeing you).
It is of course true that the second case presupposes the first; hence a net 5 + Wisdom modifier to the DC
There is a 3rd case, that is a bit up to the GM:
3. You've successfully caught the merchant distracted and are now hiding under his cart. He cannot see you, but he knows you were there a moment ago, he suspects you are still nearby, up to no good no doubt; he retains the +Wisdom modifier to the DC as he is still a bit worried about you and trying to catch sight of you again, but the +5 from seeing you does not apply anymore.
...in the case of a guard who is charged specifically to keep his eyes on you, the situation is probably more dire - the guard would probably be on high alert (an additional +5 to the DC) to avoid having to face severe penalties for allowing you to escape.
Many thanks, that helped set some things in my minds eye here. To help keeps things a bit clearer, how about listing these two items as:
- The target is aware of you, +5
- The target is keeping an eye on you, +2
Otherwise, I'm enjoying this new use for Sense Motive and can easily see it being used for other occasions. Such as Sleight of Hand checks to pilfer something from a market table. Perhaps a +2 bonus for every 5 points you beat the DC on Sleight of Hand checks.
Ya, that will do nicely too. Good idea on the other uses too; I kind of feel that many adventures under utilize Sense Motive - so giving it one or two good uses would be right up my alley
Yes, I am definitely going to use this in my homebrew setting. It gives a little more depth to a sneaky adventure without all the guards having to be played by me, so it really makes it feel more like skill when a rogue is sneaking up to a mansion to rob the owner blind than GM fiat when I say he isn't noticed.
I think in addition to using these rules, I'm going to give Sense Motive as a class skill to stealthy types that don't have it, like Ranger.
I think in addition to using these rules, I'm going to give Sense Motive as a class skill to stealthy types that don't have it, like Ranger.
That is up to you, of course, but personally I think this is what Traits are for. There are at least 5 traits that can grants Sense Motive as a class skill so if a player feels they need it, they can always gain it that way.
A class skill only adds +3. For mundane circumstances (waiting a few rounds until you roll a 15 or better) anybody can use it - as there is no inherent penalty for failure, there is no need to push the numbers just to make the feature viable for all classes.
Finally keep in mind that a ranger gains his Favored Enemy bonus to Sense Motive as well (which I think makes a lot of sense) so they do not absolutely need the freebie.
I have been keeping an eye on this thread. It looks like a good mechanic for fixing up home-brew Stealth options. Good work.
I have been keeping an eye on this thread. It looks like a good mechanic for fixing up home-brew Stealth options. Good work.
Totally agree, and redotted.
(What ever happened to all of my dots?)
A) Target is guarding or on watch, +5
B) Target is alert, +5
What is the diffence bewteen a and / or B?
A) Target is guarding or on watch, +5B) Target is alert, +5
What is the diffence bewteen a and / or B?
A tool to allow a GM to scale the difficulty better. But to put it into context:
A target that is guarding or on watch is always considered to have a higher DC - it is the job of the guard to pay attention to things around him. The same is not true for a merchant at his stall: he is trying to get customers and make good business - the merchant is not considered preoccupied, as he is still paying attention to all potential customers around him.
However, both the guard and the merchant can additionally be on high alert. A guard might hear alarms ringing and shouts of "the prisoner escaped!" which would make him far more wary and observant. Likewise, the merchant might be trying to peddle his wares in an area he knows his filled with petty thieves and pickpockets, he too would be on higher alert than normal to protect his wares.
You know, I've been wondering if it would be better than this use of the skill would be better served as taking a minute before a check can be made. With a -20 or -10 penalty to attempt it as a Standard action.
I rather not - it would be contrary to what I expect in real life where it is but a moment to decide if somebody is looking the other way.
However, it is worth considering instating a penalty to Stealth (say -5); and for every 5 by which you beat the Sense Motive DC the penalty is lessened by 1. Or something like that.
Keep in mind though, using Bluff to Create a Distraction is a standard action also, incurring a -10 penalty to your Stealth check.
As it sits right now, using a Sense Motive as a standard action is a more appealing choice over Bluff when attempting to hide. Something needs to be traded for that security, and in this case I think time may be it.
I would probably also institute some sort of penalty for either failure generally or failure by a given amount.
To extend your original example- currently either you see a good distraction or you don't.
There is 0 chance to /think/ you found a suitable one.. but are wrong.
If Susi sees the curvy wench and thinks the guards will be suitably distracted but fails to realize that guard 1 really likes his wenches tall and lanky- or whatever.
Otherwise *all* the guy is losing is time. He will eventually find a suitable distracted moment and sneak through.
Just a thought.
-S
The problem is that it isn't easy to institute a penalty. If a player rolls low and the GM says, "Oh - he's distracted, you can try to stealth" - then the player will rightfully suspect that this is not really the case.
Keep in mind though, using Bluff to Create a Distraction is a standard action also, incurring a -10 penalty to your Stealth check.
Consider, however, that in the case of using bluff to create a diversion; the assumption is that you are standing in front of people that do not let you want to get away. A "mere" opposed bluff check is enough to create such a distraction. Considering that it is a rare skill for an NPC/monster to have a lot of ranks in, the opposed Sense Motive roll will on average be 10 + Wisdom modifier; which is a pretty easy DC to beat for anybody that specializes in bluffing and sneaking.
The underlying assumption for using Sense Motive to sense distraction is that you're not in front of people that want to keep track of you. You are merely waiting for the right time to move on - "only" losing time is perfectly acceptable.
If you try to use sense distraction in a situation where a bluff to create diversion could be used, this is what the probable DCs work out to:
- Create a Diversion: opposed Bluff-vs-Sense-Motive; likely target DC 10 + Wisdom modifier
- Sense Distraction: Sense Motive roll vs 15 + 5 (target alert) + 5 (target watching you) + Wisdom modifier (target wants to keep watching you) + 2 (unfavorable conditions) = DC 27 + Wisdom modifier
- increase the DC for sense distraction for every additional enemy by 2, also increase it by 5 if the enemies are on guard or similar watchful duties
Situation: hostile enemies are watching you
Making the sense distraction check successfully is not a given in that situation; even given enough time. Also, given the situation (enemies might be trying to engage you and kill you) you may not have a couple of minutes to wait out til you notice nobody is looking at you for a moment.
He will eventually find a suitable distracted moment and sneak through.
Remember, that getting opportunity to actually use stealth in non-trivial situations *is* what the skill use is supposed to achieve. The real test will still be the opposed stealth-vs-perception roll. Sense distraction only creates openings for your character (and opponents(!)) to use and abuse.