So the group I dm Kingmaker for has just reached the second chapter and thus have begun playing around with the kingdom building rules. Using the kingdom sheet provided in the players guide seemed slow and cumbersome, as the person keeping track of kingdom scores needed to constantly erase and re-figure the new kingdom values as they prgressed through each phase. Long story short, it was impacting our game time in a bad way.
So when we met up this week to play, I brought my laptop with me with a convenient kingdom tracking program that I found on this very message board, excel based, and the second I brought it out, my group exploded in anger!
"I deal with spread sheets all day, I'm not dealing with them here!"
"You are missing the whole point of DnD! Its a pen and paper game!"
"Well, we might as well go diceless now! You can do it all on the precious computer"
And so on and so forth. I was taken aback by the level of hostility bringing a laptop to the game table had brought on. After much explaining I finally calmed them down, let one of the players use the kingdom tracking program (which after they did admit was easier and saved a boat load of time) and things went more smoothly but.....jeez, I could almost see their eyes start glowing red at the beginning. Anyone have a similar experience?
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I think that people look at RPG video games and view them as a watered down version of the "real thing." (which I agree, but still enjoy playing.) you're players might be scared that the presense of a laptop will dumb down the game.
But a laptop is just a tool. Paper and pencils are tools, too, just like dice. Just remind your players that these things are used by the game, but are not the game.
Writting out the kingdom chart is probably not the reason they come week after week. If it is, by all means don't mess with it. But if it isn't, then speeding up that piece means more time for role playing or battles or whatever else they like.
I think that people look at RPG video games and view them as a watered down version of the "real thing." (which I agree, but still enjoy playing.) you're players might be scared that the presense of a laptop will dumb down the game.
But a laptop is just a tool. Paper and pencils are tools, too, just like dice. Just remind your players that these things are used by the game, but are not the game.
Writting out the kingdom chart is probably not the reason they come week after week. If it is, by all means don't mess with it. But if it isn't, then speeding up that piece means more time for role playing or battles or whatever else they like.
i personally loathe laptops, smart phones etc at the gaming table
The group havent asked, but it think just for KM Kingdom building id tolerate laptop for that bit
though we have used the same chart for about the last 15 sessions. it does look a bit dog eared
I plan on using the spreadsheet option when we reach kingdom building within the next week or two. While I think the group will enjoy the kingdom building portion of Kingmaker, I think the spreadsheet will take away a lot of the bookkeeping feel of it and allow them to focus on building and not trying to track each and every thing by hand.
I don't anticipate any poor reactions when I start lugging a laptop to the game for that aspect of it. I guess we'll see soon!
I think that people look at RPG video games and view them as a watered down version of the "real thing." (which I agree, but still enjoy playing.) you're players might be scared that the presense of a laptop will dumb down the game.
But a laptop is just a tool. Paper and pencils are tools, too, just like dice. Just remind your players that these things are used by the game, but are not the game.
Writting out the kingdom chart is probably not the reason they come week after week. If it is, by all means don't mess with it. But if it isn't, then speeding up that piece means more time for role playing or battles or whatever else they like.
i personally loathe laptops, smart phones etc at the gaming table
The group havent asked, but it think just for KM Kingdom building id tolerate laptop for that bit
though we have used the same chart for about the last 15 sessions. it does look a bit dog eared
The tool is never the issue. It is the way it is used. If they players used a laptop to surf the interwebs during a game session that might be an issue for me too, but using it to speed up play= 2 thumbs up even though I am the one running the spreadsheet in this case.
My group is into the 3rd book (Blood for Blood) and I can't imagine how many errors I would have if I were tracking all of the Kingdom building on paper.
I don't own a laptop, so when the Kingdom building kicks in, we move to my office and take care of business there (often many months at a time). Then when it's done, we're back at the gaming table for some traditional role-playing.
I guess it just depends on the players. Which is why I'm so very selective regarding who I run games for.
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Considering I run my game in a University Lecture Theatre with a computer, a laptop, a projector screen and my books the idea of being outraged by a single laptop is kinda funny to me.
I don't need all those toys to play, but I have to say there's something atmospheric about bringing up the picture of an owlbear. Or a map of a Tatlwyrm nest projected onto a white board that makes a special kind of experience.
Considering I run my game in a University Lecture Theatre with a computer, a laptop, a projector screen and my books the idea of being outraged by a single laptop is kinda funny to me.
I don't need all those toys to play, but I have to say there's something atmospheric about bringing up the picture of an owlbear. Or a map of a Tatlwyrm nest projected onto a white board that makes a special kind of experience.
Can you expand on how you use the various bits of technology in your game please?
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Sure.
The desktop computer runs the lecture theatre, including lights, sound and display. The projector pretty much displays everything on the Desktop screen. So I usually put up the map of the Stolen Lands (sans symbols, and with Fog Of War on unexplored areas). The players then pick the direction they're going to travel in. If they hit an encounter then I switch to a battle map, or a picture of the NPC or monster they encounter and rough out a map with Initials and funny little pictures of the monsters on the white board.
My Laptop is open and connected to the internet so I have access to the Bestiary, and a copy of the PDF open (so I'm not constantly switching back and forth on the book).
We've yet to start the Kingdom building aspects of the game, but when we do I suspect I'll use the Excel file to update the kingdom statistics and show them their Kingdom character sheet as they make rolls and the like.
Two of my players bring Laptops and keep their character sheets on their lappies, still rolling real dice, but saving time on page flipping. (Tabs on their excel files for skills, combat, spells, feats and what have you make it easier to jump back and forth).
Furthermore because it's a lecture theatre lighting and sound are easily controlled with the push of a button making for a very atmospheric experience. For the battle with Tuskgutter spoilers ahead
Technology can be fun, and I suspect the experience would be quite similar in a low-tech set up (turning the lights off and giving the PCs torches to read their character sheets by) while using traditional map and minis would work fine. But since I have access to the stuff (uni clubs for the win!) I make good use of it while I can.
Thanks!
There are two laptops at my table.
Richie uses it to keep a journal of what is going on during the game and posts it on Paizo (Saharan Cantos and my laptop as the DM.
Since I am a AP subscriber, and was an RPG subscriber, I have all the PDFs. I have extracted the pictures, so I use them as visual aids for my players, and I keep track of everything on the laptop. I have in the neighborhood of 14 windows open, including multiple pdf viewers with the skills, feats, spells, bestiary open and multiple copies of the module. We are in Legacy of Fire, the Impossible Eye, so I have a copy for each citadel level, and one for the text so I can switch back and forth. Also a document for notes, for items found and in party "treasure" and a spreadsheet for XP.
I could not ever go back to just pen and paper.
-- david
Papa.DRB
There are two people in one of my groups that are banned from using any electronic devices at the table because we (I am one of them) get distracted by the internet.
My other group use a laptop to control MapTool which has been used to excess by the DM.
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I've nearly always used a PC while in the GM chair for using excel for tracking calender days, weather, and events ever since 2000 when 3e came out. Nowadays I've recently trotted out my large LCD tv out onto the tabletop and started using it as a digital battlemat via maptools. I've been able to display all the maps from the Kingmaker pdfs (subscriber is worth it for this alone!) and run the adventure directly on them. I've also been able to easily display a pic of the NPC currently being talked to as well as a fog of war of their exporations of the Greenbelt thus far.
So to answer the OP, yes I've heard some people make comments about laptops and such...but it just likely means they haven't experienced a digital setup yet! :)
Talk to your players. Ask them what's fun for them. Do that. Don't do what they say is not fun for them.
Quite simple, really.
My particular crew has one guy who loves the draw out the map as they explore and another who likes to track all the inventory/treasure. We let 'em do it cuz they like it.
Most of us are pretty old-school and like the pencils and papers tho. I honestly don't think laptops/devices bring much to the table other than audio and references in pdf.
My group was nominally against laptops at the table until we reached adventure #5 of the Curse of the Crimson Throne. The GM just refused (and rightly so) to have to redraw the castle every single week, especially when the majority of the place was empty rooms. He hooked a laptop up to the TV and we could all see what was going on. The bluetooth mouse allowed us to control our characters remotely. Everything else was done as normal.
So yea we saw the advantage of computers in the game without having the computer become the game.
Since I am a AP subscriber, and was an RPG subscriber, I have all the PDFs. I have extracted the pictures, so I use them as visual aids for my players, and I keep track of everything on the laptop. I have in the neighborhood of 14 windows open, including multiple pdf viewers with the skills, feats, spells, bestiary open and multiple copies of the module.
I do that also, but I find the Combat Manager can reduce A LOT of going back-and-forth for things like feats, spells, etc. Try it out, it's awesome: http://combatmanager.com/
The one group I play with typically has anywhere from 1-3 laptops, one of which is currently the DM, he uses it to keep track of our kingdom and save space/weight by having his books on PDF.
What I wish we would ban? cell phone, the newer(iphone, droid, etc.) the worse they are. You can't possibly imagine how little I care to hear when someone gets a poke on facebook, what team is winning in whatever damn sport OR that your girlfriend is at home and now fighting for her very life against against a common house spider or a cricket (bees and bee allergies are an exception :P)... I... don't... care.
Our other group doesn't use laptops and we are playing RotRL, so no kingdom sillyness to juggle, though the cell phone still features prominently with at least one person.
Nope, hasn't happened. Maybe because none of my players has to put up with spreadsheets all day.
Anyway, the computer has always been a valuable tool to me as GM: I use the Paizo PDFs for fast reference (even if we're not playing at my place, I have my whole PF collection of books), the PRD, I use MapTools (and a second screen) for the maps, and I run background music using the JinglePlayer.
For Kingmaker, I just added a few things, namely some symbols for buildings (for city building) and Landmarks, Cities, Resources etc for the Stolen Lands map in MapTool, as well as an online spreadsheet that holds all the Kingdom and city information.
We're dealing with lots of roads and farms and buildings and bonuses from each building to lots of statistics and all that - Pen an Paper can bite my shiny metal ass.
The game will never be all computer for us - character sheets are still on paper, dice are still on the table (real, actual dice - though I as GM will sometimes use dice rollers, especially if they're fighting spellcasters with high-level attack spells), books are there, there's an actual battlemat and miniatures....
Denying oneself the vast advantages a computer brings is just silly. You just have to remember that it's just another tool for you. It's not the game itself.
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My group was nominally against laptops at the table until we reached adventure #5 of the Curse of the Crimson Throne. The GM just refused (and rightly so) to have to redraw the castle every single week, especially when the majority of the place was empty rooms. He hooked a laptop up to the TV and we could all see what was going on. The bluetooth mouse allowed us to control our characters remotely. Everything else was done as normal.
So yea we saw the advantage of computers in the game without having the computer become the game.
Twenty years ago that was the dream of it would be done in the future.
Now we are in the future and rarely do it that way.
Having badly cracked the spine of my poor module last Sunday going back and forth between the pages I start to think I should cave in and use a laptop.
Wow, I wrote that back in October of 2010.
Yup, found that program back in late April 2011, and after Kyle fixed a big bug for me (importing PCGen sheets correctly), I have been using it. Last night was the first night using the combat manager specifically and it was great! While I still keep notes, xp spreadsheet, the adventure pdfs and a few other windows open, this has replaced about 8 of the 14 open windows.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Since I am a AP subscriber, and was an RPG subscriber, I have all the PDFs. I have extracted the pictures, so I use them as visual aids for my players, and I keep track of everything on the laptop. I have in the neighborhood of 14 windows open, including multiple pdf viewers with the skills, feats, spells, bestiary open and multiple copies of the module.I do that also, but I find the Combat Manager can reduce A LOT of going back-and-forth for things like feats, spells, etc. Try it out, it's awesome: http://combatmanager.com/
I use my laptop to run every tabletop game I have. It's much quicker to do a search in the pfsrd or pathfinder pdf than to leaf through pages (for me, anyway; some people are really good at memorizing page numbers).
Honestly, I can't imagine running without it any more. I've been gaming since the early 80s, so obviously I've run for decades without a laptop, but it's just such a useful tool that speeds up the paperwork so I can focus more on role playing.
If any of my players had a problem with it, they'd have to hit the road. That's just how I roll (quite literally, in this case).
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The main problem with laptops or iPads at the gaming table lies in either having a large group of players or ones that are easily distractable. Nothing is more annoying than having your players checking facebook, watching youtube videos or IMing while they should be paying attention to whats happening in game. Not only is it distracting, but then you have to either repeat what you said, or other players have to tell them whats going on. I have several players who just arent capable of NOT doing other stuff while major events in the game are going on, so they are banned at the table. I typically print out what I need for encounters from my bestiary PDF or from Hero Lab, and I have an appointed rules lawyer who is responsible for looking things up for the group.
I have played with groups who were very focused and all used laptops with Heroforge (3.5 games), and it was no different than paper characters sheets and hardback books, so it can work well. However, experience has taught me this seems to be the exception to the rule among gamers, at least at my table.
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The main problem with laptops or iPads at the gaming table lies in either having a large group of players or ones that are easily distractable. Nothing is more annoying than having your players checking facebook, watching youtube videos or IMing while they should be paying attention to whats happening in game. Not only is it distracting, but then you have to either repeat what you said, or other players have to tell them whats going on. I have several players who just arent capable of NOT doing other stuff while major events in the game are going on, so they are banned at the table. I typically print out what I need for encounters from my bestiary PDF or from Hero Lab, and I have an appointed rules lawyer who is responsible for looking things up for the group.
I have played with groups who were very focused and all used laptops with Heroforge (3.5 games), and it was no different than paper characters sheets and hardback books, so it can work well. However, experience has taught me this seems to be the exception to the rule among gamers, at least at my table.
I solved the problem with facebook checking...i put a password on my wireless connection and don't give it to my players, or i turn off wireless altogether and plug my lan cable in the laptop. My brother recently banned the possibility of going to facebook from our modem.
Well, I played games where the GM brings a laptop, and I never have had any problem with it. For this case, how I'm running my game is that both me and another player keep track of things on paper, I then pop all that info into the spreadsheet, and post it at our forum, I also print it and bring a hard copy for the players to review.
The only reason I don't take my laptop is that it's a 17in screen monster, I do take my laptop, and I'm online throught the game (mostly checking the PFRD). While I do take the book with me, I keep a pdf copy of the 6 player version on my ipad, my players never had an issue with it, but this might be an answer for you.
In the end I agree, a laptop is just a tool, and if it makes things go smoothly go for it, but if your players don't dig it, keep it to paper.