Hello Forums,
So here's the deal - I'm currently playing a "tank" in my campaign (Fighter 7 / Paladin 2) - and have invested a lot of feats into pumping my saves in order to deal with those pesky spellcasters.
Apparently the word about how difficult it is to land spells on me has reached the general villain populous because now enemies consistently target with with various enfeebling rays.
So we're about to level up to 10, which would allow me to swap a feat as an 8th level fighter and I would like to work on my touch AC / Ray defense
Current Feats
Level 1 - Power Attack, Dodge, Combat Expertise
Level 2 - Mobility
Level 3 - Improved Buckler Defense
Level 4 - Spring Attack
Level 5 - Iron Will
Level 6 - Combat Reflexes
Level 7 - Step Up
Level 9 - Leadership
Level 10 - ??
I looked at the Ray Deflection feat in the APG but I am pretty far from being able to get it, also I don't think it works with bucklers and I am kind of married to that style through my Fighter weapon group focus.
Any thoughts?
Depending on item availability, a ring of counterspells filled with ray of enfeeblement might be an inexpensive solution.
It only works once until you get someone to refill it, but that might go a long way.
Depending on item availability, a ring of counterspells filled with ray of enfeeblement might be an inexpensive solution.
It only works once until you get someone to refill it, but that might go a long way.
Hi Dire,
Thanks for your response, that is definitely something to consider but the lethal cocktail that I seem to get consistently is Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of exhaustion + (sometimes) Enervation - basically been dropping my +hit by 5-8 depending on the foe...
I guess a follow up question would be, is there a way to get specific resistances vs. necromancy?
Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of ways to resist necromancy via feats. You can get Great Fortitude and Iron Will, as well as greater versions of these. There's a feat in the Campaign Setting that might help, IIRC it's called Necromantic Resistance. It's a regional feat that will help. But what you might really need is a way to avoid being hit at all aka a good touch AC via high Dexterity, Dodge, and bonuses to your touch AC via deflection, insight, etc. I note you have Leadership. Is your cohort a spellcaster? Having a cleric handy to dispel these things as they occur won't hurt either.
It also doesn't hurt to ask the other PCs for their assistance. Finally, talk to your GM. If you're always getting hit with the same spells, then one asks the question of how the bad guys all know to use those spells. And only those spells. This may start moving from an in-game situation to an out-of-game situation where the GM-player bond is at stake.
Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of ways to resist necromancy via feats. You can get Great Fortitude and Iron Will, as well as greater versions of these. There's a feat in the Campaign Setting that might help, IIRC it's called Necromantic Resistance. It's a regional feat that will help. But what you might really need is a way to avoid being hit at all aka a good touch AC via high Dexterity, Dodge, and bonuses to your touch AC via deflection, insight, etc. I note you have Leadership. Is your cohort a spellcaster? Having a cleric handy to dispel these things as they occur won't hurt either.
It also doesn't hurt to ask the other PCs for their assistance. Finally, talk to your GM. If you're always getting hit with the same spells, then one asks the question of how the bad guys all know to use those spells. And only those spells. This may start moving from an in-game situation to an out-of-game situation where the GM-player bond is at stake.
Hi Lathira,
Thanks for your suggestions. I have already spoken with my GM and as much as I loathe to admit it does make sense (in many cases) that our opponents would be familiar with my character. He is a crusader type and public figure, all through his own making (RP stuff).
As for leadership, the resources from this feat have allocated towards the effective management of a lawful good military initiative being waged by my character (part of the reason villains know who he is). So when my cohort is around he is of great help but he is often elsewhere advancing my character's interests.
It's a ray, so try to boost your Touch AC. Higher Dex (Maybe), Deflection, Dodge?
Hi David,
I already have dodge, and my dex bonus is decent (+3) but constrained by my armour. Although I guess some mithril full plate and a better dex item are a decent option.
Thanks for your input
Hello Forums,
So here's the deal - I'm currently playing a "tank" in my campaign (Fighter 7 / Paladin 2) - and have invested a lot of feats into pumping my saves in order to deal with those pesky spellcasters.
Apparently the word about how difficult it is to land spells on me has reached the general villain populous because now enemies consistently target with with various enfeebling rays.
So we're about to level up to 10, which would allow me to swap a feat as an 8th level fighter and I would like to work on my touch AC / Ray defense
Current Feats
Level 1 - Power Attack, Dodge, Combat Expertise
Level 2 - Mobility
Level 3 - Improved Buckler Defense
Level 4 - Spring Attack
Level 5 - Iron Will
Level 6 - Combat Reflexes
Level 7 - Step Up
Level 9 - Leadership
Level 10 - ??I looked at the Ray Deflection feat in the APG but I am pretty far from being able to get it, also I don't think it works with bucklers and I am kind of married to that style through my Fighter weapon group focus.
Any thoughts?
There is feat that allows your shield bonus to AC to apply to touch attacks. Ray's don't stack. Make sure the DM knows this. Try to get items that get you a miss chance.
I don't know what books are allowed, but getting items that allow you to teleport next to the casters will take care of them.
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Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of ways to resist necromancy via feats. You can get Great Fortitude and Iron Will, as well as greater versions of these. There's a feat in the Campaign Setting that might help, IIRC it's called Necromantic Resistance. It's a regional feat that will help. But what you might really need is a way to avoid being hit at all aka a good touch AC via high Dexterity, Dodge, and bonuses to your touch AC via deflection, insight, etc. I note you have Leadership. Is your cohort a spellcaster? Having a cleric handy to dispel these things as they occur won't hurt either.
It also doesn't hurt to ask the other PCs for their assistance. Finally, talk to your GM. If you're always getting hit with the same spells, then one asks the question of how the bad guys all know to use those spells. And only those spells. This may start moving from an in-game situation to an out-of-game situation where the GM-player bond is at stake.
Hi Lathira,
Thanks for your suggestions. I have already spoken with my GM and as much as I loathe to admit it does make sense (in many cases) that our opponents would be familiar with my character. He is a crusader type and public figure, all through his own making (RP stuff).
As for leadership, the resources from this feat have allocated towards the effective management of a lawful good military initiative being waged by my character (part of the reason villains know who he is). So when my cohort is around he is of great help but he is often elsewhere advancing my character's interests.
In his GM's defense, it was the first spell I put on my cohort caster, and she rays the biggest nastiest sword wielding brute pretty much first thing in a round.
There is feat that allows your shield bonus to AC to apply to touch attacks. Ray's don't stack. Make sure the DM knows this. Try to get items that get you a miss chance.I don't know what books are allowed, but getting items that allow you to teleport next to the casters will take care of them.
Hi Wraithstrike,
Thanks for your suggestion, this is great - I looked up the feat and it is called "Shield Ward" and from PHB2 (which is a source my DM generally allows).
As for ray's not stacking, I know rays of the same type don't stack (ie. 2 Rays of Enfeeblement), but do different rays that target the same stats also not stack: example - Ray of Enfeeblement & Ray of Exhaustion?
In his GM's defense, it was the first spell I put on my cohort caster, and she rays the biggest nastiest sword wielding brute pretty much first thing in a round.
Oh poop I've been discovered!
Also - as far as I can tell no-one is blaming the GM; I think it makes perfect sense for enemies to target known / apparent weaknesses - PC's would do the exact same thing.
I was just curious about options for protecting against it.
Enfeeblement and exhaustion will stack together. The only reason enfeeblement doesn't stack with itself is that it specifical states that in the spell description.
Yeah that's what I thought too.
There is feat that allows your shield bonus to AC to apply to touch attacks. Ray's don't stack. Make sure the DM knows this. Try to get items that get you a miss chance.I don't know what books are allowed, but getting items that allow you to teleport next to the casters will take care of them.
Hi Wraithstrike,
Thanks for your suggestion, this is great - I looked up the feat and it is called "Shield Ward" and from PHB2 (which is a source my DM generally allows).
As for ray's not stacking, I know rays of the same type don't stack (ie. 2 Rays of Enfeeblement), but do different rays that target the same stats also not stack: example - Ray of Enfeeblement & Ray of Exhaustion?
They stack. EDIT: The three different rays stack with each other.
Ray of Enfeeblement inflicts a direct penalty to STR that you are permitted a Fort save to halve. EDIT: multiple rays of enfeeblement cannot do more than the maximum possible penalty. Empowered Maximized Rays of Enfeeblement are rather rare and a waste of a 6th level spell slot.
Ray of Exhaustion inflicts the Exhausted condition on a failed Fort save / fatigued on a successful Fort save. EDIT: multiple rays of exhaustion cannot put you at any worse than exhausted. lesser restoration is Your Friend.
Enervation inflicts temporary negative levels without a save. Enough of them kill your character.
However, you are skipping your best buddy in the whole world: your party Cleric.
1 death ward puts a stop for sure to enervation as a negative energy effect (rather than a death effect). At 9th-10th level, that spell should be in his daily list at least once & hopefully it is one that your group was able to purchase a wand (or, better, loot several wands) of. Since your group can - in "campaignicus genericus" - reasonably expect to have already begun encountering various nasty and unpleasant critters that want to turn Your Heroes into blasphemous undead mini-onions, it is a sound equipage purchase and/or manufacture decision.
The trusty Cleric also has access to this handy-dandy spell called "Spell Immunity". At 8th level he can make a recipient immune to two spells of 4th level or less of the Cleric's choosing for a time (unbeatable SR). And another excellent group investment to in a wand (at least at CL 8th, 12th or 16th - any other numbers are an unnecessary expenditure of valuable gp).
These kinds of things are rather important for keeping one's Fighter up front and crushing/hacking/stabbing the BBEG and/or the BBEG's numerous mini-onions into julienne fries. These also help the Trapfinder as well, since Da Trapfinder has probably a rather lower bonus on his Fortitude saving throws. You are Da Trapfinder's flanking buddy and brother-at-arms. Nothing survives the two of you for very long as a rule of thumb.
Especially since you have Da Cleric and Da Arcane Caster Guy backing you up. ^_^
There is feat that allows your shield bonus to AC to apply to touch attacks. Ray's don't stack. Make sure the DM knows this. Try to get items that get you a miss chance.I don't know what books are allowed, but getting items that allow you to teleport next to the casters will take care of them.
Hi Wraithstrike,
Thanks for your suggestion, this is great - I looked up the feat and it is called "Shield Ward" and from PHB2 (which is a source my DM generally allows).
As for ray's not stacking, I know rays of the same type don't stack (ie. 2 Rays of Enfeeblement), but do different rays that target the same stats also not stack: example - Ray of Enfeeblement & Ray of Exhaustion?
Yes they stack because they are from 2 different spells. You might want a ring of counterspell if it has not been mentioned already. Having scrolls of invis is not a bad idea. I know you can't cast spells, but you can have the party arcanist do it for you, unless you took UMD. If they can only guess your square it is a 50% miss chance. If they can't guess your square before you get to them they die. They could cast see invis or glitterdust, but that is one round they are not debuffing you. It also frees up your allies if you are the target.
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Having the fatigued mercy will help quite a bit as well. You have the option of selecting it at 3rd level Paladin. Since you (hopefully) will save versus the Ray of Exhausting, a simple swift action lay on hands will cure it.
Also death ward will grant you immunity to Enervation spells.
Hi Lathira,Thanks for your suggestions. I have already spoken with my GM and as much as I loathe to admit it does make sense (in many cases) that our opponents would be familiar with my character. He is a crusader type and public figure, all through his own making (RP stuff).
As for leadership, the resources from this feat have allocated towards the effective management of a lawful good military initiative being waged by my character (part of the reason villains know who he is). So when my cohort is around he is of great help but he is often elsewhere advancing my character's interests.
Actually, my question now is this: why are those the first spells you get hit with? They're good, but a) that's 3 spells, which requires some Quicken Spell goodness to get off in less than 3 rounds, and b) why not other spells like grease, charm person, color spray, etc.? There are many ways to disable a fighter without repeatedly targeting him with effects that reduce his strength and/or levels.
SR is your friend. Get someone to cast spell resistance on you. Also, anything that gives you a deflection bonus to AC. Those are my quick thoughts.
Actually, my question now is this: why are those the first spells you get hit with? They're good, but a) that's 3 spells, which requires some Quicken Spell goodness to get off in less than 3 rounds, and b) why not other spells like grease, charm person, color spray, etc.? There are many ways to disable a fighter without repeatedly targeting him with effects that reduce his strength and/or levels.
Well, we have a real lack of magical utility in our group which means it is often difficult to get on top of well defended spellcasters so it's not uncommon for them to get a few spells off before we can close in.
Re: non-ray spells. In our early levels I was coming up against a similar problem whereby I was constantly being taken out of battle by save-or-sucks and consequently I focused on improving my saves in the mid levels - nothing insane but against a spellcaster of equal level it is more likely than not that I will simply make the save against fort & will spells in particular.
Paladin mercies are nice, too, especially if you're the Paladin. Death Ward, as has been mentioned previously, is a great defense, and the other suggested defenses are excellent as well. I see, though, that you are a a level 2 Paladin. It may fit with your planned progression, I don't know, but taking more levels of Paladin and getting the mercies will allow you to cure yourself as a swift action. One more level of Paladin lets you take the fatigued mercy, which will let you remove the effects of a Ray of Exhaustion as a swift action lay on hands(assuming you save successfully, which still means you're fatigued, should be an easy fort save as a Fighter/Paladin). With a Death Ward to beat Enervation, you're looking at the Ray of Enfeeblement now. You'll probably save against that, for half. Short of Spell Immunity, you will have to deal with that somehow. Many fine suggestions have been made already.
Somehow getting spell immunity (the spell), through items or allies.
A wand of lesser restoration might be helpful too.
You want potions of lesser restoration rather than wands as the wands (like a scroll) will take 3 rounds to cast while the potion is a standard action to quaff.
You can talk with your DM about quickdraw applying to potions (and alchemicals) as he might allow that.
-James
Thanks for the suggestion,
I agree that it's important to keep curative items around since no matter how good your defense you eventually get tagged.
However the main focus of my question was options for improving my defensive chances vs. rays.
Paladin mercies are nice, too, especially if you're the Paladin. Death Ward, as has been mentioned previously, is a great defense, and the other suggested defenses are excellent as well. I see, though, that you are a a level 2 Paladin. It may fit with your planned progression, I don't know, but taking more levels of Paladin and getting the mercies will allow you to cure yourself as a swift action. One more level of Paladin lets you take the fatigued mercy, which will let you remove the effects of a Ray of Exhaustion as a swift action lay on hands(assuming you save successfully, which still means you're fatigued, should be an easy fort save as a Fighter/Paladin). With a Death Ward to beat Enervation, you're looking at the Ray of Enfeeblement now. You'll probably save against that, for half. Short of Spell Immunity, you will have to deal with that somehow. Many fine suggestions have been made already.
Indeed, there have been a lot of good ideas put forth (including yours).
I guess I had kind of pre-supposed that I was going to take a fighter level but I haven't yet decided whether I want to pursue paladin-hood further... maybe the mercy would be more valuable than the feat...
Something to think about anyway - thanks for your response!
There really is not much of a defense against rays and other non-incorporeal touch attacks. Deflection bonus (ring of protection, protection from [alignment]) are the least-expensive. Dodge and Combat Expertise are the other methods, along with fighting defensively (dodge bonuses) and of course Dex. A few other RAW sources exist: ioun stone has one or maybe two methods, perhaps a luck stone. The rest are party-dependant: haste (dodge bonus), prayer (penalty to foes' attack rolls) and higher-level spells.
All of this is moot against a foe with Quickened True Strike backing up their rays (+20 insight bonus on top of their normal ranged attack bonus that ignores concealment miss chance).
Your best chance is a Ring of Invisibility, as previously mentioned. An entire party focussed as much on Stealth as Perception is nasty ....
On the up side, as previously mentioned, bad guys spending actions on just you means that they're not nuking the entire group.
There really is not much of a defense against rays and other non-incorporeal touch attacks. Deflection bonus (ring of protection, protection from [alignment]) are the least-expensive. Dodge and Combat Expertise are the other methods, along with fighting defensively (dodge bonuses) and of course Dex. A few other RAW sources exist: ioun stone has one or maybe two methods, perhaps a luck stone. The rest are party-dependant: haste (dodge bonus), prayer (penalty to foes' attack rolls) and higher-level spells.
Hi Turin,
Ioun stones are a great idea, every little +1 helps!
All of this is moot against a foe with Quickened True Strike backing up their rays (+20 insight bonus on top of their normal ranged attack bonus that ignores concealment miss chance).
True, but that's a lot of spell mojo so I can't get mad when it works.
On the up side, as previously mentioned, bad guys spending actions on just you means that they're not nuking the entire group.
Hah so true!! Thats why I have to tell myself almost every session - my party contribution is to soak the hits so it's ok that I can't kill anything.
Thanks for your response
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Also forgot to mention, there is probably debate as to whether this will work or not, but a Tower Shield may prevent the caster from shooting a ray at you if you take total cover (This depends on the DMs ruling on whether a ray is a targeted spell or not). This would, if the ruling goes your way, prevent the ray from hitting you.
Are you allowed to use 3.5 material? There's a feat in Lords of Madness (the abberations book) called parrying shield (I think) that allows you to add your shield bonus to your touch AC, and it is listed as a feat that a fighter can take as a bonus feat.
There's also a feat (I think it's called divine shield) that allows you to add your charisma bonus (as a deflection bonus) to your shield bonus, which would boost your touch AC even more once you had the parrying shield feat.
Are you allowed to use 3.5 material? There's a feat in Lords of Madness (the abberations book) called parrying shield (I think) that allows you to add your shield bonus to your touch AC, and it is listed as a feat that a fighter can take as a bonus feat.
There's also a feat (I think it's called divine shield) that allows you to add your charisma bonus (as a deflection bonus) to your shield bonus, which would boost your touch AC even more once you had the parrying shield feat.
Cool - thanks for the suggestion, I almost like that feat better than shield ward since it has fewer pre-requisites.
Grabbing a +2 INT Ioun Stone or +2 INT Headband (depending on what mental stats you`re already boosting)
gives you 1 new skill maxed out... Perfect for UMD.
With what sounds like a nice-ish CHA score, you should be able to use Wands pretty reliably.
Miss Chance is something you want because it`s a complete new line of defence besides AC.
Doing what you can vs. Touch AC can help (Mithril Fullplate sounds like a good idea),
but Miss Chance is generally going to be more effective... AND it also applies vs. melee attacks!
If you already have Mobility / Spring Attack, consider Wind Stance which gives 20% miss chance whenever you move, and I BELIEVE that True Seeing doesn`t bypass that.
If you`re worried about incorporeal attacks,
adding ghost touch to your armor (esp full plate) will make Incorporeal AC very tough to beat.
Also remember, if you have any sort of Cover, or are `in melee` those AC bonuses should also apply vs. Touch AC.
So make sure you end up in melee every round if you`re worried about Rays.
Deathward vs. Ennervation, Paladin Mercy vs. Fatigue, and BOTH Ring of Counterspell AND a Spell Immunity vs. Enfeeblement should keep you mostly safe vs. the stuff you`re seeing irregardless of Touch AC / Miss Chance.
I once played a high level fighter character who had a similar problem. My solution was to acquire a Cloak of Lesser Displacement. The constant 20% miss chance saved that characters bacon more times than I can remember; the cloak was the only thing that prevented the character from getting critted with an enervation.
Get the cloak.
Hello Forum People (again)
Thanks for all of your great advice, you've definitely given me some great ideas on how to improve my chances via rays.
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You might consider a Scarab of Protection if you're not too married to your neck slot item. It's a bit pricey at 38k but provides SR20 and the capacity to absorb up to 12 of those pesky energy draining attacks. Note that it does say "can absorb" which implies that you can choose for it not to do so, as it turns to dust after absorbing 12 negative energy effects.