Forced Movement

[Steve Geddes]

We had a question come up last night with regard to Come and Get It but more generally to forced movement. We understand that if you try and move someone over a pit or 'harmful square' they get a save to fall prone instead. As I understand it, you also can't slide someone through a blocking square (like a pillar or something). You also can force someone to move through difficult terrain with no modifications. What if it's a square which requires some kind of skill check to maneuver through?

Can I push/pull/slide an enemy into an ice square they need to make an acrobatics check to enter without falling over?

Can I push/pull/slide an enemy into a steep slope they need to make an athletics check to climb?

[P.H. Dungeon]

To keep it simple for you as a dm, I would just use saving throws (even for PCs). If a character is forced moved onto a square of ice, have them make a save or fall prone (except for maybe a rogue, who would likely prefer an acrobatics check). I'd do the same with the steep slope. The person isn't really trying to climb the slope or balance to walk on ice, which to me would be a situation where a skill check would be more appropriate.

Steve Geddes wrote:

We had a question come up last night with regard to Come and Get It but more generally to forced movement. We understand that if you try and move someone over a pit or 'harmful square' they get a save to fall prone instead. As I understand it, you also can't slide someone through a blocking square (like a pillar or something). You also can force someone to move through difficult terrain with no modifications. What if it's a square which requires some kind of skill check to maneuver through?

Can I push/pull/slide an enemy into an ice square they need to make an acrobatics check to enter without falling over?

Can I push/pull/slide an enemy into a steep slope they need to make an athletics check to climb?

[Raevhen]

What I would do is slide them into the square still standing, and only make them roll if they move into another square with the same conditions.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Checking the compendium says...

"Challenging Terrain: Forced movement can make some powers more effective or hinder them, depending on the specific challenging terrain. The DM can require the target of forced movement to make a check as if it were moving voluntarily across the terrain, with the same consequence for failure."

So it does leave it somewhat up to the DM, but it sounds like you generally would require someone who entered such terrain to make checks like normal, or suffer the consequences. If those consequences can be severe enough, then they would presumably get the save beforehand to fall prone instead of entering the terrain.

However, I think there is also a difference between certain checks. Whenever I enter a square with ice, I need to make an Acrobatics check or I fall down. That is different from holding onto a cliff, where you don't need any check to be there, you simply need to make a Climb check to leave your current square.

So, my rulings would be:

-Yes, you can slide someone onto a patch of ice, and they would then have to make an Acrobatics check to avoid falling over.

-Yes, you can try to slide someone onto a steep cliff, and they would get a save to fall prone to avoid being moved onto the cliff. On a failure, they would now be on the cliff but no immediate climb check would be required. On their next turn, they would need a successful climb check to move off the cliff, with the potential risk of falling to the ground below.

[Uchawi]

From my perspective with the above stated I would apply both the skill check (when applicable) and the saving throw (when avoiding falling damage) with the same movement. Difficult terrain would be ignored as part of a push, slide, or pull.

So you could fall prone on the ice due to a failed check, and have to make a save if pushed over a ledge.

[Steve Geddes]

Thanks for the comments.

What would people think in a situation where (for instance) the monster was slid one square onto ice, it failed its acrobatics check and fell prone - would it continue to be slid prone from there or would that end the forced movement? How about if it was specifically Come and Get It where the interpretation suggests the victim is moving towards the fighter under their own steam - falling prone on ice ends movement usually, does that mean the monster doesnt continue?

[Matthew Koelbl]

Steve Geddes wrote:

What would people think in a situation where (for instance) the monster was slid one square onto ice, it failed its acrobatics check and fell prone - would it continue to be slid prone from there or would that end the forced movement? How about if it was specifically Come and Get It where the interpretation suggests the victim is moving towards the fighter under their own steam - falling prone on ice ends movement usually, does that mean the monster doesnt continue?

By the rules, you can be forced moved while prone, so technically one would keep moving. (And, honestly, with ice it isn't too hard to visualize - momentum keeps the enemy sliding along the ice even after they slip and fall!)

Now, Come and Get It is trickier conceptually - as you note, the flavor of the power is that the enemy is intentionally approaching the Fighter. It's worth noting that Come and Get It tends to get into these sort of issues all the time.

Some people prefer to rule with whatever makes sense to them - I generally try to let it work as long as I can come up with some explanation. (In this case, the Fighter uses it. The nearby orc roars, and charges at him. Then slips and falls on the ice and comes sliding up for the fighter to take a nice easy swing at.) Basically, if it doesn't hurt anything to let the power work, I'll do so - only in really bizarre cases would I have the power not work as designed.