Dear Paizo,
On the strength of community reviews I recently bought a copy of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook (3rd printing). I haven't played the game since 2nd Edition, but own the 3.0 PHB. I'm interested in gaming again and have also looked at 4e.
So, right now as someone coming back to the game after a long, multi-edition hiatus I'm keen to absorb the rules and find which ruleset (Pathfinder v 4e) is clearest, since I expect I will have to train some first-time gamers. So, I'm reading the rulebooks with a first-timers perspective in mind and I find much that would confuse, or potentially put off players with unexplained ideas.
On reading through the Core Rulebook I have observations as a relative newcomer that I hope Paizo will take into account for future printings or revisions in order to smooth the learning curve. The online RPG community has hailed Paizo for listening responsively to messageboard issues, so I'm hoping that I can contribute.
Basically, strong presentation and layout aside, the Core Rulebook seems to presume a reader that is a) already quite familiar with 3.5 rules, or b) is willing to make rules assumptions without clear corroboration.
A number of core rules concepts aren't sufficiently clearly spelled out or would benefit from some brief redundant statements just to make things clearer. Some of these rules don't seem to have been further clarified since their 3.0 iteration. This is disappointing because I was under the impression that Pathfinder was the definitive 3.x ruleset and was supposed to have vastly tidied up the system.
For example, base attack bonus rules, multiclassing and prestige classes, two-weapon fighting, the use of miniatures (or not) in combat.
1. Base attack bonus - the rules say
"Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature's base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat when he takes a full-attack action."
Based on intuition I gather that additional attacks are calculated by subtracting 5 from the full BAB. An additional attack is gained if the result is positive. It would be good to spell this logic out.
E.g. 'No matter what class(es) a character has, they will receive an additional attack in combat when their cumulative principal base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16. In all cases, the BAB for subsequent attacks is derived by subtracting 5 from the BAB of the preceding attack. No additional attack is gained if the result of this is 0 or below.'
Does BAB refer to the highest number in a series such as +20/+15/+10/+5 - or are they all BABs for first, second, third and fourth attacks?
2. BAB and Two-weapon fighting - the rules for two-weapon fighting contain absolutely no indication about whether a BAB applies to an off-hand attack, nor what level of BAB. Is it taken at the full BAB or at (BAB-5) just like a second attack (before two weapon penalties are applied)? Maybe I can just read the rule strictly ("get an extra attack") and conclude with some section hopping that unless otherwise stated an attack works as described on p. 178-9?
A single sentence example would work wonders here.
3. BAB and multi-classing - It is not terribly clear whether additional BAB-derived attacks are gained from advancing significantly in a single class or whether advance in two or more classes combine and BAB plus additional attacks are derived from increases to the fundamental BAB. For example, does Ajax the Fighter 6/Cleric 8 (the separate levels of fighter and cleric would have BABs of +6/+1) have a BAB of +12/+2 or one of +12/+7/+2?
If its the latter then shouldn't there be a clear statement under the BAB rule and the multiclassing rule sections?
With prestige classes, none of them seem to offer a second attack in their class tables even though ones BAB may rise above +6 or +10. With no clearer rules explication how am I to figure out whether a Bard 8/Arcane Archer 9 has a BAB of +15/+1 or a BAB of +15/+10/+5?
4. Saves and multi-classing - Do save bonuses from different classes simply add together? I would think so, but the sample multiclass NPC on p. 455 seems to have saves +1 higher than the simple sum of his 4 ranger levels and 2 rogue levels.
A step-by-step character creation example would be a great thing, if you can't print it then at least make one available as a PDF on the site, it would really help new players learn faster by example.
5. Prestige classes and multiclassing - for the benefit of newbies it would be good to state that prestige classes follow the rules for multiclassing. Clarifying how prestige class BABs combine with core class BABs would also be good in terms of deriving additional attacks.
6. Adjudicating combat with (or without) miniatures - all the core rules say in this regard are the following:
"Miniatures are on the 30mm scale—a miniature of a 6-foot-tall man is approximately 30mm tall. A square on the battle grid is 1 inch across, representing a 5-foot-by-5-foot area."
That's it. It doesn't tell me about how useful they are in making the tactical aspects of combat easier to run, whether they are required or even highly recommended, is using a battlemap recommended? What about how to run combat without using miniatures?
All we are given is a definition of what a miniature is and not how it should be used, if at all. Maybe we could infer that from the diagrams in the Combat chapter, but maybe they are illustrative rather than prescriptive.
i know That Other Company pushes miniatures use quite heavily, but even they just pitch it as a recommendation, even suggesting the use of coins or markers. Once again, a little player or GM-ing advice wouldn't go amiss here in making combat rules friendlier to newbies.
In conclusion, having clearer examples on these various items would probably have shaved off about 2 days on my attempt to absorb the Pathfinder rules. I notice that space in the Core Rulebook is tight, but it seems worth losing one or two illustrations to make these clarifying points that end up improving the learnability and fun of the game. If these can't be revised for the print version, and really, I think they should, I hope that Paizo will at least make reforms to the online SRD.
Having scoured the messageboards for answers to this I have found numerous similar questions over the years from confused players. To me, this suggests that some clarifications need to be incorporated into the official ruleset.
Thanks for listening to a new customer.
I was under the impression that Pathfinder was the definitive 3.x ruleset and was supposed to have vastly tidied up the system.
It most certainly did tidy up the 3.5 rules, in many areas. For a whole group of players (including the DM) who are completely new to the d20 system I can imagine it would still be a bit hard to pick up though. Last time I ran a game all my players, except one, were new to the game. I told them all to buy and read a PHB, cover to cover. I could tell who did and who didn't. In this case that would be my advice to you, read the Core Rule Book, cover to cover, maybe twice.
1. Base attack bonus: As stated in the quote you posted, and enforced if you look at the Character Classes BAB entries, multiple attacks (Iterative Attacks) are calculated based on (multiples of 5)+1. So at 6, 11, and 16 your character gains an additional attack starting at a +1 bonus and increasing at the same rate as your primary BAB. This is illustrated extremely well by looking at the Fighter BAB entry. It goes up every level and is easy to follow.
I am honestly not entirely sure why you feel that was ill-explained:
E.g. 'No matter what class(es) a character has, they will receive an additional attack in combat when their cumulative principal base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16. In all cases, the BAB for subsequent attacks is derived by subtracting 5 from the BAB of the preceding attack. No additional attack is gained if the result of this is 0 or below.'
They have already told you that at BAB 6, 11, and 16 you will receive an additional iterative attack. Why does the particular math used to get there need to be laid out? I guess my question is: Why do you need the formula when you already have the answer?
2. BAB and Two-weapon fighting: When you take TWF you gain an additional attack with your off hand weapon. That attack would be made using your highest BAB, however, when you use two weapons it is more difficult to control/balance them, so you will receive negatives to all of your attacks based on several factors. Those factors are presented in the combat section of the PRD or your Core Rule Book under the Two-Weapon Fighting section.
Now you may also choose to take the Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Should you do that, they will stack up behind your original off hand attack in the same way your regular Iterative Attacks stack up behind your Primary (Highest BAB) Attack.
20th Level Fighters BAB:
Primary Hand: 20/15/10/5
Same Fighter with the TWF feat and using a Light Weapon in his off hand:
Primary Hand: 18/13/8/3
Off Hand: 18
Same Fighter with ITWF and using a Light Weapon in his off hand:
Primary Hand: 18/13/8/3
Off Hand: 18/13
Same Fighter with GTWF and using a Light Weapon in his off hand:
Primary Hand: 18/13/8/3
Off Hand: 18/13/8
3. BAB and multi-classing: All Iterative Attacks, whether from a single class, multi-classing, or Prestige Classes are calculated based on the first (Primary, Highest) number in the BAB entry.
When multi-classing you add the first numbers in the BAB entry for your level in each class: in your example, 6+6=12 and you calculate your Iterative Attacks from there. Which would leave you with 12/7/2.
With Prestige Classes the reason they only have a primary number is because the other numbers are irrelevant. You will never have a Prestige Class as your only class so there is no need to write in Ierative Attack numbers. You will always be adding their single Prestige Class BAB entry to your Base Class BAB entry and calculate your chain of Iterative Attacks from that. So, a 5th level Rogue / 5th level Assassin would have a BAB of 6 from which you calculate he has a single Iterative Attack at 1; totaling 6/1.
4. Saves and multi-classing: Saving Throw Bonuses are simply added together the same way your highest BAB is when you are calculating for multi-classing and Prestige Classing. If the example shows a higher number than the sum of each class save bonus at that level, then check the stats of the example character, it is probably a bonus from high stats. Saving Throw Bonuses are calculated both from the bonus your classes provide when you achieve higher level and from your stat bonuses.
So if you have a 5th level Fighter / 5th level Wizard you would get a total Will save bonus of +5 from class levels. But let’s say that Fighter/Wizard also has a high Wisdom stat, perhaps a 14 which grants a +2 WIS bonus. His total Will Save bonus would then be +7.
5. Prestige classes and multiclassing: I think I have already addressed this.
6. Adjudicating combat with (or without) miniatures: The reason this is as such is because it is entirely up to the DM and group playing. It really doesn't matter if you use minis and a battle map or not. My first experience with a DM using minis and a battle map was about 5 years ago, all my gaming before that was strictly based on imagination and hand drawn maps on paper. IMO, the minis make combat much easier, especially in the age of video games where all games have visual references. The illustrations in the book are actually very accurate in depicting minis and battle map navigation. The ultimate decision is up to the group though. The game can be played either way.
...
I know I am not a Designer or other Paizo representative. But until when/if one of them is able to answer your questions, I hope I have been able to clear them up a little.
They have already told you that at BAB 6, 11, and 16 you will receive an additional iterative attack. Why does the particular math used to get there need to be laid out? I guess my question is: Why do you need the formula when you already have the answer?
I think what he was referring to is the fact that the quoted rule only says that you get extra attacks when your BAB reaches those levels. It doesn't say which attack bonus you use for those extra attacks (ie; BAB-5, BAB-10, BAB-15), which it should do for clarity.
Does BAB refer to the highest number in a series such as +20/+15/+10/+5 - or are they all BABs for first, second, third and fourth attacks?
I forgot to address this part. As far as I can tell it refers to both. Your BAB is your string of Iterative Attack Bonuses. However, when you are adding BAB from multiple classes due to multi-classing or Prestige Classes you only need to worry about your primary number or highest BAB number. Also in many cases when a rules entry is referring to your highest BAB bonus it will say "highest BAB bonus" in the text. It is generally possible to tell what the term BAB is referring to by the context of the entry.
I don't mean to lecture, only to try and make it as clear as possible.
Thanks for clearing that up.