Sorcerer bonded item

[carn]

Sorcerer can get bonded item via arcane bloodline, choosing bonded item for arcane bond. Rules state, that he uses the same rules as wizard:
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities"

According to wording sorcerer could cast one spell per day without preparation, if he knows the spell(otherwise he is not capable of casting it) and has it in a spell book.
That would make bonded item very bad considering the disadvantage of losing it and i dont think, that is intended from game design. probably this was not thought about.

As the point of the bonded item for the wizard is to ignore once per day the casting limitations of the wizard, it would seem more fitting if for the sorcerer it would allow once per day to ignore his limitations. This would mean, that he could use bonded item once per day to cast a spell unprepared from any sorcerer spell level he has access to, independent of whether he knows the spell.

To powerful?
Alternatives?

[Aris Kosmopoulos]

IMO a sorcerer with arcane bloodline would mostly benefit from arcane bond by choosing a familiar. If however he chose to bond an item, he would only receive an extra slot (that cannot be modified by meta-magic feats) that he could spend for any spells he knows. NOT for spells that he could have chosen to know as you suggest.

I agree that the benefit for a wizard is grater since he has a magic book that tends to be filled with new spells as time passes. But that doesn't mean that it should have an equal benefit for the sorcerer.

So I believe that this ability was mostly created in order to give the opportunity to a sorcerer to have a familiar without multi-classing. It doesn't prohibit you from bonding to an object but your benefit doing that is in inferior to that of a wizards. I repeat the gain is bigger for the wizard not the result is more powerful for him.

This happens very often with feats for example. The gain you receive from the power attack for example as a fighter is usually greater than the one you receive as a wizard/fighter since you will have a lower BAB in the second case. The gain from a choice does not have to be the same in all situations. This is what power players do most of the time. The maximize the gain from each character building choice they make in order to maximize the marginal gain.

What you suggest IMO is very overpowered and I would not allow it even as a house-rule in my sessions. The gain it provided for the sorcerer is much larger than the one received by the wizard. This is a clear indication that it is overpowered. Once per day the sorcerer can choose a spell from all the spells that he could have chosen to know compared to the wizard who must choose it only from the spell in his spell-book.

[Relkor]

My understanding is that it gives the sorcerer one extra spell slot of any available level. However, the spell must be one he/she already knows.

I agree with Aris that obtaining a familiar via the arcane bloodline would be more beneficial.

[LazarX]

Best alternative is to just leave the rule alone as it is. You chose to be a spontaneous caster with limited access to spells in trade for casting flexibility.

Deal with it, instead of trying to dodge around that restriction with a way too powerful addition.

[Hobbun]

Aris Kosmopoulos wrote:

IMO a sorcerer with arcane bloodline would mostly benefit from arcane bond by choosing a familiar.

I think it really varies on the player on which is best. Right now I am playing a Sorceror in my groups PF campaign and I chose a bonded item as none of the familiars really perked my interest (never been much of a familiar player, anyways). I decided to go with an amulet as the item and since I am going to be going down the crafting route with my Sorceror, I plan to add a wonderous item ability to it later on. Maybe Natural Armor. Haven’t really decided it yet.

So I know many say the familiar is the best option for the Sorceror, but I feel it really depends on the player.

[Aris Kosmopoulos]

Hobbun wrote:

Aris Kosmopoulos wrote:

IMO a sorcerer with arcane bloodline would mostly benefit from arcane bond by choosing a familiar.

I think it really varies on the player on which is best. Right now I am playing a Sorceror in my groups PF campaign and I chose a bonded item as none of the familiars really perked my interest (never been much of a familiar player, anyways). I decided to go with an amulet as the item and since I am going to be going down the crafting route with my Sorceror, I plan to add a wonderous item ability to it later on. Maybe Natural Armor. Haven’t really decided it yet.

So I know many say the familiar is the best option for the Sorceror, but I feel it really depends on the player.

I did not say the the familiar is the best option, I just said that wizards and sorcerers receive the same gain from the familiar but in the case of bonded item the wizards have a greater gain than the sorcerer. Of course one sorcerer can choose it and benefit from it greatly but since he can choose from a limited amount of spells compared to the wizard he will receive lesser gain. I am not arguing that a sorcerer should always choose the familiar because it is better, I am arguing that the lesser gain comparing to the wizard from the bonded item shouldn't lead to the proposed change in the rules that is proposed by carn. This change would be unbalancing for the game IMO.

[Hobbun]

Yes, understood. To be honest, when creating my character, I did go back and forth trying to decide which one to pick (familiar or bonded item) as I am not real excited about either. But, it is part of the Arcane Bloodline.This goes a bit off topic, but I was torn on going with the Arcane bloodline, as well. The metamagic abilities didn’t excite me too much as not a fan of Metamagic feats, but I really like the bonus spell list.

But as for the bonded item, I decided to go with it as it did give me an extra spell slot. And I like that you can add an ability later on if you wish. Where I see your point it isn’t as beneficial to a Sorceror because he has more slots than a Wizard, and his spell list is limited, I am glad several times already in having that extra 1st level spell to cast. It probably will become less of a factor when I get higher level.

[Havelock]

carn wrote:

This would mean, that he could use bonded item once per day to cast a spell unprepared from any sorcerer spell level he has access to, independent of whether he knows the spell.

I'd have to give this a great big "No."

Occasionally someone will try to come up with an "I WIN" build that's as broken as their fevered imaginations can make it. Whether it's Half-Vampire Paladins or Warlock Monks I only insist that they get no special consideration just to make their build work. Then I sit back and watch them take their lumps. If they can't see the freight train it's probably because they don't want to see it. [/rant]

[IkeDoe]

Sorcerers have few feats, Wizards many metamagic feats.

For a Sorcerer being able to improve his magic ring (i.e.) without using a feat is an interesting benefit.

It's just what I think, I agree that the ability is confusing.

[carn]

IkeDoe wrote:

It's just what I think, I agree that the ability is confusing.

Thats the point that everybody missed about the problem.

The wording requires the sorcerer to have a spellbook with the spell in it. But a sorcerer is unable to copy spells to spellbooks (the rules for this only mention "wizard"). So he would have to buy one from wizards or loot or steal one - preferably one, that contains all the spell he knows.

Sutpid example, lev 1 sorcerer knows sleep and silent image. He has looted a spellbook containing magic missle, color spray and mage armor. Hooray, he cannot cast a spell with his bonded item. He can pay a wizard to add silent image and sleep to the spell book. He advances to level 3, selects summon monster 2 as known spell and - hooray - cannot cast it with the bonded item, as it is not in the spellbook

As far as i can tell, from what i read here and googled, nobody uses the bonded item this way. If everybody uses a houserule, i try to pick one, that neither overpowers nor diminishes something, but offers players valid alternatives.

The written rule - carry along a spell book with correct spells to cast one extra spell without metamagic,lose this as long as you have no spellbook and nearly lose all casting in case bonded item gone - might in sum actually be a disadvantage.

The just one extra slot i dont like, because its far too weak to be interesting(considering the danger associated) and it does not give access to something otherwise unattainable, just one spell more. The point about bonded item for wizard is, that it allows the wizard to do something, that is otherwise impossible for his class.
Something similar for sorcerer would be nice.

What about any spell of known level, but it has to be prepared beforehand as for a wizard, but with no requirement for spellbook?

[carn]

To emphasize the problem of the rule, a starting lev 1 sorcerer with bonded item, probably cannot cast any spell with it, because he does not start with a spellbook and does not have the starting money to buy one with his spells in it.

[Hobbun]

Ok, I see your point. However, since under the Arcane Bloodline it says Arcane Bond is available for Sorcerors, even though RAW says the extra spell is out of the spellbook, I am sure RAI meant for Sorcerors it comes out of their known spell list.

I can’t see the designers intending the Sorceror to pick up a spellbook just so they get an extra spell slot per day.

But it would be good to get clarification on this. I will mark as FAQ.

[Hobbun]

We played a session today in our campaign where I am a Sorceror with the Arcane Bloodline and I also chose Arcane Bond.

I brought up the issue mentioned in this thread and his response was if the Sorceror is required to have a spellbook to cast his extra Arcane Bond spell, our DM said he would open it up to any spell on the Sorceror spell list, including spells not part of his 'known' spell list (of course he would need purchase the spells for the book).

His feelings are if the Sorceror is going to be forced to use the spellbook and it having it work just like a Wizard, he is going to then have the benefit of being able to gain every spell on the Sorceror's spell list. Again, just like a Wizard.

Of course this would apply to only that one Arcane Bond spell per day.

[Dire Mongoose]

Havelock wrote:

I'd have to give this a great big "No."

Occasionally someone will try to come up with an "I WIN" build that's as broken as their fevered imaginations can make it. Whether it's Half-Vampire Paladins or Warlock Monks I only insist that they get no special consideration just to make their build work. Then I sit back and watch them take their lumps. If they can't see the freight train it's probably because they don't want to see it. [/rant]

Of course, as broken as you're implying that would be, the way Arcane Bond actually does work for a wizard is still better. That is, the power-up it provides to a wizard (in the hands of a good wizard player) is bigger than the power-up this would provide to a sorcerer in the hands of a good sorcerer player.

(Wizard is my favorite class to play; has been since they were still called magic-users -- but Arcane Bond seems to me too much power to give a class that's already the best.)

[cfalcon]

This is intriguing.

The intention is probably an extra highest level spell slot. But it does sound like if the sorcerer has spent the time to study a spell book, that he might have one really versatile casting per day. Probably not intended, but certainly interesting.

I was considering, for the next game I'm going to run, allowing sorcerers to actually have some flexibility in their spell list by keeping a spell book like a wizard, if they so choose. Obviously I would have to keep it very limited or the wizard's advantage would be muted and the sorcerer's generally superior method of casting would dominate if they were granted the super power that is wizard level versatility. But I would do that with an actual written up alternate Sorcerer class, not some odd interpretation of the arcane bloodline. Still, good thread!