I already addressed the issue in another thread but I think deserves a whole new one:
Deadly Stroke (Combat)
With a well-placed strike, you can bring a swift and painful end to most foes.
Prerequisites: Dazzling Display, Greater Weapon Focus, Shatter Defenses, Weapon Focus, proficiency with the selected weapon, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single attack with the weapon for which you have Greater Weapon Focus against a stunned or flat-footed opponent. If you hit, you deal double the normal damage and the target takes 1 point of Constitution bleed (see Conditions). The additional damage and bleed is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Double Crossbow:
This heavy weapon fires a pair of irontipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger. Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt. Reloading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow
Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a move action
Deadly Stroke is not precision-based damage.
Assume a crossbow fighter with a standard crossbow. Deals 30 damage with an attack, critical 60, critical deadly stroke 90.
With a double crossbow would deal 60 damage (assuming no precision damage involved). A critical hit would deal 90.
What about a deadly stroke? I'd be tempted to say 120, because the Double Crossbow does not say "you deal double damage" but "you take damage from both bolts" and Deadly Stroke doubles it.
So, on the same line, a critical hit would be 150.
What do you think? Am I right (120/150) or wrong (90/120)?
Please note that it's for clarity, I don't absolutely think that the more damage-dealing option would be OP: quite the opposite, would be very, very nice.
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Putting aside whether or not Deadly Stroke applies to ranged weapons, how do you get 30 damage out of a single attack from a crossbow?
The problem with double crossbows is that you will never get more than one attack a round with it, since even with Crossbow Mastery it takes a move action to load it. At sixth level a Crossbowman with CM can get off three attacks with a heavy crossbow with only Rapid Shot penalties.
I could use more than one kind of crossbow and switch when needed.
Is not the point of the discussion, was an example to make (hopely) things clear).
Anyway, I guess that with deadly aim, fighter specialization, dexterity to damage and stuff you can go past 45 by level 20.
Not a matter of optimization, if not to clarify a rule combination optimize a single sniping action. THIS could be interesting.
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Yeah, it might make an interesting single attack sniping weapon, especially combined with Crossbowman's Deadshot abilities.
I'm currently playing a 3rd Level Crossbowman in Serpent's Skull and did a 10-level build recently according to DPR Olympics rules, and I doubt I would take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses as feats in the first ten levels. Haven't really thought about it much beyond that, though.
I believe this is not as intended and one of those cases of a "loop hole" from rules not being considered in use together. Truth is, given the new rule set, I'd expect Deadly stroke to be considered "precision damage" (and it is half way there with the "not multiplied on a crit" clause). I imagine that they didn't call it out as such to try and make it more attractive and useful (by not being rendered ineffective against creatures with defenses against "precision damage") for the attempted buff to the fighter class through combat feats. I'd also imagine if they were to fix it you'd expect to see an "or other bonus damage" tacked onto the line about the first bolt damage - basically that second bolt should be a regular damage roll with maybe weapon spec/warrior bonus damage for weapons/magical weapon enhancements added on.
Obviously my suggestion isn't RAW, but I think you are going against RAI in this case. Given the other issues that are around, I think this is low on the list and at best we might see an unofficial response on the boards in the near future.
I actually think that this interpretation could make useful the double crossbow at high level, and could synergize usefully with the crossbow fighter..
But I don't know if it's correct.
The problem with the "synergy" you are talking about is, the weapon becomes the end all be all for that type of build. No other crossbow build can compete with the damage output with your interpretation. That you end up inflicting so much more damage when using that particular weapon because of one feat is really bad in the grand scheme of things. So, while I will readily admit RAW actually supports your interpretation, it goes against what the Paizo crew has been doing with the PFRPG. The inclusion of a single inexpensive (in comparison) weapon should not double the output of a feat. As I said, it is just one of those corner cases where you get extraordinary results because of a rules technicality and it's probably just a matter of time until someone says "Yeah, not supposed to work that way" ;) I could be completely wrong, but those numbers are too large for me to comfortably say they are OK without hesitation and in PFRPG they tend to be more conservative with things like that.
Not that it has any real bearing on things, but in 3.5 there was an enhancement for ranged weapons called splitting and was a +3 enhancement. Now compare the cost of a +1 splitting crossbow and compare it to the cost of a double crossbow. That cost descrepancy is way too large even with the penalty to hit from the double crossbow to get the same end result.
Splitting, IIRC, worked on every arrow.
The double crossbow trick with deadly stroke works only with a standard action attack, and the target must be flat footed or stunned.
It's worthy only with the crossbow fighter, IMHO. I don't see it as OP, I see it as viable..
Splitting, IIRC, worked on every arrow.
The double crossbow trick with deadly stroke works only with a standard action attack, and the target must be flat footed or stunned.
It's worthy only with the crossbow fighter, IMHO. I don't see it as OP, I see it as viable..
I'm not saying it is OP either, just that it doesn't necessarily fit with what the game designers have been doing so far...
Splitting, IIRC, worked on every arrow.
The double crossbow trick with deadly stroke works only with a standard action attack, and the target must be flat footed or stunned.
It's worthy only with the crossbow fighter, IMHO. I don't see it as OP, I see it as viable..
What book is the weapon in?
Double Crossbow is in the APG.