Too good?

[Yrtalien]

I'm running a game with someone playing a Bard (Arcae Duelist), this is my first time running anything with a Bard in it so I went looking through the books I have for magic items that might be of use to a martially minded Bard. I came across these in the Magic Item Compendium and I'm pretty sure my player would kill for either of them... My questions follow: Are they too good? Have any of you ever allowed them? Would you allow them in your games? If you're players would you want them? and finally since they are 3.5 Bard items do they translate nicely to Pathfinder's Bard?

BOW OF SONGS
Price (Item Level): 12,330 gp (13th)
Body Slot: —(held)
Caster Level: 8th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19)
evocation
Activation: Swift
(command)
Weight: 2 lb.
This bow is made of fine wood and appears to be of elven design.
This +1 shortbow blends music with every shot to deadly effect. On your
turn, you can expend one daily use of your bardic music ability to gain a bonus equal to your Charisma bonus on the next attack roll and (if your attack hits) on the corresponding damage roll that you make
with the bow.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, sculpt sound, elf, bardic music.
Cost to Create: 6,000 gp (plus 330 gp for
masterwork shortbow), 480 XP, 12 days.

CRYSTAL
ECHOBLADE
Price (Item Level): 4,310 gp (9th)
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) evocation
Activation: —
Weight: 4 lb.
This longsword's blade is crafted from jagged violet crystal. When you hold it close to your ear, you hear a faint hum. A crystal echoblade normally functions as a +1 longsword, but is enhanced by your musi­
cal ability, if you use your bardic music ability while wielding
the weapon, the blade resonates in harmony, dealing additional
sonic damage on each attack equal to half your bard level.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms
and Armor, bardic music.
Cost to Create: 2,000 gp (plus
310 gp for masterwork long­
sword), 160 XP, 4 days.

Thanks

[Glutton]

Bow of songs is pretty terrible, plus you have to figure out how many rounds of bardic music you would subtract from your pool to use its ability.

Crystal echoblade is pretty decent, please note it can be added onto a +1 sword like a enhancement so a Arcane bonded sword will probably have it. I really, really recommend a +1 harmonizing crystal echoblade being aloud. I played a bard to 18th level very recently with pretty much that exact item. Harmonizing is a very strong and nice ability to give to bards.

If you really want to turn your players head, have a pair of slippers of battledancing around for later levels.

[Enlight_Bystand]

Yeah, Bow of Song is far better done through the feat arcane strike now.

The echoblade is very nice though - + half level for a +1 item quality is pushing it. I might say that it uses up twice as many rounds for performance, as by the level you can afford a weapon with it, it's unlikely that you're not singing in combat.

[MordredofFairy]

thanks for finding that...

my nordic NPC skald viking raiders will form a death-metal band.

Their chorus will enrich the game table as they slash their way through my PC's...now to find the songs to use...

[Mistah Green]

Yrtalien wrote:

I'm running a game with someone playing a Bard (Arcae Duelist), this is my first time running anything with a Bard in it so I went looking through the books I have for magic items that might be of use to a martially minded Bard. I came across these in the Magic Item Compendium and I'm pretty sure my player would kill for either of them... My questions follow: Are they too good? Have any of you ever allowed them? Would you allow them in your games? If you're players would you want them? and finally since they are 3.5 Bard items do they translate nicely to Pathfinder's Bard?

In order:

No, they are not too good. Quite the opposite. They are rather lackluster.
No, because none of the Bard players wanted a bow or a one handed weapon.
Yes, provided that the person was aware they really weren't that good, understood why they were not that good, and wanted them anyways.
(Assuming you mean if I were your player): No, for the reasons stated prior.
No, not by default. But it would take about 5 seconds to fix that.

[Yrtalien]

I don't understand, why do you think they are lackluster in both cases the damage is untyped and can be stacked with Inspire Courage. In the case of the Crystal Echblade at my players current level that would be +4 damage, with Inspire Courage's +2, arcane strike for another +2 and the swords normal +1 for a total of +9 damage... which is pretty good (I was worried too good)... What am I not seeing that makes both these weapons so meh?

BTW, the player would probably make the echoblade his bonded object and would increase the plus to hit... is it the +1? Is that why people don't like it?

Thanks

[Mistah Green]

Yrtalien wrote:

I don't understand, why do you think they are lackluster in both cases the damage is untyped and can be stacked with Inspire Courage. In the case of the Crystal Echblade at my players current level that would be +4 damage, with Inspire Courage's +2, arcane strike for another +2 and the swords normal +1 for a total of +9 damage... which is pretty good (I was worried too good)... What am I not seeing that makes both these weapons so meh?

BTW, the player would probably make the echoblade his bonded object and would increase the plus to hit... is it the +1? Is that why people don't like it?

Thanks

Bow: Pay an extra 10k, a bard song per use, and a swift action per use to get +cha to attack and damage... on one attack. With a bow. This is terribad. If it applied to every attack you made in that round it might be ok, but it doesn't do that. This item is barely worth lugging back to town to sell for half price.

Sword: This is a bit better. +2k for half level sonic damage. It doesn't say how long it lasts though. Presumably as long as you're singing? At any level in which you'd actually use the thing, it's only giving +2 or +3 damage. This would be fine if it were a two handed weapon, but since it isn't... Now you said +4, which means a level 8 or 9 Bard. He's already outgrown it. And at that level +9 damage per hit is beyond trivial. Enemies at level 8 average 97 HP. Enemies at level 9 average 131 HP. +9 added onto a one handed weapon's damage is completely lackluster.

Now both of these assume you're intending on just stripping out the unique effect, and applying it to a level appropriate weapon (as opposed to plain +1). If you aren't, these weapons are even weaker.

Now if you wanted to make these properties better, that's not too difficult to do. Most of the problems are simple. Wrong base item type, or numbers too low, or applicability too narrow.

[Lyrax]

The echoblade seems good to me. The bow of songs would be much better if it didn't cost 3x as much as the echobloade, since the echobloade is actually better. I might increase the echoblade's price to be a +2 weapon.

[Cartigan]

Lyrax wrote:

The echoblade seems good to me. The bow of songs would be much better if it didn't cost 3x as much as the echobloade, since the echobloade is actually better. I might increase the echoblade's price to be a +2 weapon.

I think you are "fixing" the problem in the wrong direction.

[Major__Tom]

Frankly, unless the player is specifically looking for a weapon, neither of them is anything special. Since you have the MIC, I'd look up the Canaith Lyre or the Doss Lute. Not that they are anything superpowerful, but handy and useful to a bard.

[Mistah Green]

Major__Tom wrote:

Frankly, unless the player is specifically looking for a weapon, neither of them is anything special. Since you have the MIC, I'd look up the Canaith Lyre or the Doss Lute. Not that they are anything superpowerful, but handy and useful to a bard.

As long as we're discussing other MIC items, there's something in there that boosts inspire. Badge of Courage? I don't remember, I last played a Bard a long time ago.

[Maezer]

Cartigan wrote:

I think you are "fixing" the problem in the wrong direction.

The echoblade is undercosted. +3.5 average elemental damage is worth one enhancement level. The echo sword runs from 1-10 extra sonic damage, is multiplies on a crit, and costs only 2k gp rather than the minimum 6k gold for elemental damage.

I think the echoblade property compares favorables for the elemental burst property and is probably best priced as a +2 enhancement level equivalent, but is at the very minimum superior to a +1 enhancement level equivalent.

[Selgard]

Keep in mind though that the Echoblade is a longsword which can be used one or two handed effectively.

Myself, am using that for my bard so that he can swap between using or not using a shield as the situation warrants without having to spend a feat on a bastard sword or such.

-S

[Cartigan]

Maezer wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

I think you are "fixing" the problem in the wrong direction.

The echoblade is undercosted. +3.5 average elemental damage is worth one enhancement level. The echo sword runs from 1-10 extra sonic damage, is multiplies on a crit, and costs only 2k gp rather than the minimum 6k gold for elemental damage.

I think the echoblade property compares favorables for the elemental burst property and is probably best priced as a +2 enhancement level equivalent, but is at the very minimum superior to a +1 enhancement level equivalent.

And the Holy Avenger is only 60k for a +7 Cold Iron weapon that can use Greater Dispel Magic at will as a standard action and grants an area effect of Spell Resistance.

[vuron]

Maezer wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

I think you are "fixing" the problem in the wrong direction.

The echoblade is undercosted. +3.5 average elemental damage is worth one enhancement level. The echo sword runs from 1-10 extra sonic damage, is multiplies on a crit, and costs only 2k gp rather than the minimum 6k gold for elemental damage.

I think the echoblade property compares favorables for the elemental burst property and is probably best priced as a +2 enhancement level equivalent, but is at the very minimum superior to a +1 enhancement level equivalent.

It does scale with level but it also is use limited (only during bardic music which I admit is going to be most rounds at mid to high level). Sonic damage is nice (few things have resistance or immunity) but it's not overpowering.

I'm not sure it's appropriately priced for the effect but I'm also not sure that it's equivalent to a burst weapon either.

Honestly I'd rather create a custom +1 enhancement sonic weapon that does d4 sonic damage and a +2 sonic burst weapon that does d8 sonic on a crit in addition the sonic weapon. That way less damage but less chance of having the bonus damage absorbed as well. I would of course do sound effects when using said weapon especially if I had a brilliant energy sonic weapon ;)

[Maezer]

Cartigan wrote:

And the Holy Avenger is only 60k for a +7 Cold Iron weapon that can use Greater Dispel Magic at will as a standard action and grants an area effect of Spell Resistance.

Holy Avenger is 120,630gp. That is priced above a +7 weapon. Admittedly the extra 20k it costs above a +7 weapon is a pretty good deal for SR and Greater Dispel Magic at will. But its certainly valued at more than 60k.

[Mistah Green]

Maezer wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

I think you are "fixing" the problem in the wrong direction.

The echoblade is undercosted. +3.5 average elemental damage is worth one enhancement level. The echo sword runs from 1-10 extra sonic damage, is multiplies on a crit, and costs only 2k gp rather than the minimum 6k gold for elemental damage.

I think the echoblade property compares favorables for the elemental burst property and is probably best priced as a +2 enhancement level equivalent, but is at the very minimum superior to a +1 enhancement level equivalent.

You haven't checked the weapon crystal section, have you?

They realized that while the elemental abilities cost +1, they weren't worth +1. So they made it a flat +3k or so.

Elemental Burst is worse than just taking two different elemental abilities, which in turn is overcosted as well. Standards like that are the reason fighters are not allowed to have nice things.

[Cartigan]

Maezer wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

And the Holy Avenger is only 60k for a +7 Cold Iron weapon that can use Greater Dispel Magic at will as a standard action and grants an area effect of Spell Resistance.

Holy Avenger is 120,630gp. That is priced above a +7 weapon. Admittedly the extra 20k it costs above a +7 weapon is a pretty good deal for SR and Greater Dispel Magic at will. But its certainly valued at more than 60k.

Right, looking in wrong place. But you are still Greater Dispelling at will using your Spell Resistance generating +7 Cold Iron Longsword.

A Mantle of Spell Resistance costs 90k. By itself. That generates 21 SR. For you. The Holy Avenger, in the hands of a Paladin, generates an AoE Spell Resistance of at least 5, and more likely ~18+. Between the +7 Cold Iron Longsword and Mantle of Spell Resistance, that is a 190k item. And I can't even find anything that does Greater Dispel Magic.

[Glutton]

If bard melee damage is unbalancing your game perhaps you should move on to Monopoly.

[Mistah Green]

Cartigan wrote:

Maezer wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

And the Holy Avenger is only 60k for a +7 Cold Iron weapon that can use Greater Dispel Magic at will as a standard action and grants an area effect of Spell Resistance.

Holy Avenger is 120,630gp. That is priced above a +7 weapon. Admittedly the extra 20k it costs above a +7 weapon is a pretty good deal for SR and Greater Dispel Magic at will. But its certainly valued at more than 60k.

Right, looking in wrong place. But you are still Greater Dispelling at will using your Spell Resistance generating +7 Cold Iron Longsword.

A Mantle of Spell Resistance costs 90k. By itself. That generates 21 SR. For you. The Holy Avenger, in the hands of a Paladin, generates an AoE Spell Resistance of at least 5, and more likely ~18+. Between the +7 Cold Iron Longsword and Mantle of Spell Resistance, that is a 190k item. And I can't even find anything that does Greater Dispel Magic.

Because the Spell Resistance provided by items is high enough to make spells cast by anything close to your level to have any chance of fizzling?

No, it isn't. The item does nothing for you. Cost is not the same as worth. The Dispel is something, but an AoE Dispel is not as useful as a targeted one.