Dwarven Rogue / Barbarian build ideas

[aeonite]

I have it in my head to make a Dwarf Rogue with a splash of Barbarian. Mostly a breaking-and-entering sort of guy, knows dungeons and tunnels like the back of his beard. Also a bit rough around the edges with the ability to go a little crazy nuts when he needs to. Pure Rogue doesn't feel right, really.

I like the idea of using a Dwarven weapon, but it doesn't look like anything would really want to cooperate. If I go Finesse I'm basically steered towards dual short swords. If I go thematic then I give him axes or an Urgrosh, but then I have to pump Strength to make him feasible and that means sucking away from skill points.

Basically if there were some weapons that were both Dwarfy and Finessey this problem seems to go away. Any other avenues I'm missing? Would dual hand axes measure up over the long run?

I also had it in my head to make him a bit MacGyvery. Good with his hands, crafty to the point where in his mind anything is a weapon. I know there are a few such improvised weapon feats, but I'm newer to Pathfinder so I'm not sure if they're viable with a build like this, or if they'd stack with Roguey things.

I'd be starting him out at level 8, 20 point build. Only Pathfinder material allowed.

[Gryphon Gold]

The dwarven maulaxe from Adventurer's Armory is a light weapon.

[Caineach]

Good choice. Barbarian is one of the best matches for a rogue to dip in. The bonus hit and damage from rage is huge.
str 14
dex 16 +1 lvl 4
con 16 (13+2) +1 lvl 8
int 14
wis 12 (10+2)
cha 8 (10-2)

Barbarian for 2 or 4 levels. I recommend extra rage feat for multiclassed barbs.

Personally, I like animal fury for the extra attack that combines with sneak attack. Swift foot is also nice on a dwarf. The APG has some amusing drunken rager abilities if you want to go that way. There are a bunch of ones that could be handy or useful, but nothing really sticks out to me as something you need to grab.

Even for TWF, taking weapon finnese is a trap. Rogues want a decent strength to do damage. With these stats, a +2 dex belt will let you take improved TWF for the second attack, and while raging you will have an 18 in both str and dex, eliminating the need for spending a feat.

[Hexcaliber]

Wait, I didn't think you could deal sneak attack damage while raging. Was I wrong about this?

[Caineach]

Hexcaliber wrote:

Wait, I didn't think you could deal sneak attack damage while raging. Was I wrong about this?

There is nothing in the rage rules or sneak attack rules to prevent it, so yes, you can combine them.

[aeonite]

Caineach wrote:

Hexcaliber wrote:

Wait, I didn't think you could deal sneak attack damage while raging. Was I wrong about this?

There is nothing in the rage rules or sneak attack rules to prevent it, so yes, you can combine them.

Evidently this has been discussed before:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/275685-rage-sneak-attack .html

[MordredofFairy]

aeonite wrote:

I have it in my head to make a Dwarf Rogue with a splash of Barbarian. Mostly a breaking-and-entering sort of guy, knows dungeons and tunnels like the back of his beard. Also a bit rough around the edges with the ability to go a little crazy nuts when he needs to. Pure Rogue doesn't feel right, really.

I like the idea of using a Dwarven weapon, but it doesn't look like anything would really want to cooperate. If I go Finesse I'm basically steered towards dual short swords. If I go thematic then I give him axes or an Urgrosh, but then I have to pump Strength to make him feasible and that means sucking away from skill points.

Basically if there were some weapons that were both Dwarfy and Finessey this problem seems to go away. Any other avenues I'm missing? Would dual hand axes measure up over the long run?

I also had it in my head to make him a bit MacGyvery. Good with his hands, crafty to the point where in his mind anything is a weapon. I know there are a few such improvised weapon feats, but I'm newer to Pathfinder so I'm not sure if they're viable with a build like this, or if they'd stack with Roguey things.

I'd be starting him out at level 8, 20 point build. Only Pathfinder material allowed.

try something like this:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/rogueSimpleOptimizationTipsCommonPitfalls&page=1#18

Basically he's a soldat. But he should fit perfectly fine into your build. No need for Dex or Finesse. A dwarven rogue/barbarian has no need for either ;)

[aeonite]

MordredofFairy wrote:

No need for Dex or Finesse. A dwarven rogue/barbarian has no need for either ;)

Well, it would be nice to be able to use Disable Device. But in PF that takes an Armor Check Penalty hit, no?

[General Dorsey]

aeonite wrote:

MordredofFairy wrote:

No need for Dex or Finesse. A dwarven rogue/barbarian has no need for either ;)

Well, it would be nice to be able to use Disable Device. But in PF that takes an Armor Check Penalty hit, no?

Yes but it may not make much of a difference. If you put 8 ranks in you'll start with +11. If you are wearing a MW Chain Shirt you'll only have a -1 to the check. There are feats you can take to get you up to +5 (Deft Hands and Skill Focus) and there are also traits that can add another +1. If you take the traits Armor Expert (reduce the ACP by 1) and Vagabond Child (+1 to one of several skills including Disable Device) you'd have a +17 total without any Dex bonus.

[Tanis]

aeonite wrote:

MordredofFairy wrote:

No need for Dex or Finesse. A dwarven rogue/barbarian has no need for either ;)

Well, it would be nice to be able to use Disable Device. But in PF that takes an Armor Check Penalty hit, no?

All Dex and Str based skills take a ACP.

[MordredofFairy]

General Dorsey wrote:

aeonite wrote:

MordredofFairy wrote:

No need for Dex or Finesse. A dwarven rogue/barbarian has no need for either ;)

Well, it would be nice to be able to use Disable Device. But in PF that takes an Armor Check Penalty hit, no?

Yes but it may not make much of a difference. If you put 8 ranks in you'll start with +11. If you are wearing a MW Chain Shirt you'll only have a -1 to the check. There are feats you can take to get you up to +5 (Deft Hands and Skill Focus) and there are also traits that can add another +1. If you take the traits Armor Expert (reduce the ACP by 1) and Vagabond Child (+1 to one of several skills including Disable Device) you'd have a +17 total without any Dex bonus.

what dorsey said.

With ranks and it being a class skill, you'll get a good score on it.
With masterwork tools, a circumstance bonus.
You can take 10, and if that is insufficient, take off your armor and try again. I can tell you, most of the time it WILL suffice.

The thing is: If you want high Dex to go two-weapon fighting and base your damage on sneak attack, you may as well go for throwing axes.

You can use them in melee, as well, and if you won initiative, you can start with a full attack of throwing axes as ranged weapons with sneak to each one against the flatfooted opponents.

And axes are dwarfy.
I never liked DPS-optimized dual-wielding rogues though, and THAT is going to attract lots of attention, and rightfully so, from enemies, and you WILL be squishy.

I found the damage output with a dwarven war axe, sneak, and a heavy shield is just fine, with high survivability.

Look at it "honest", what could your highest starting dex be? 18? 20 at 8th level? Thats a +5 bonus to those skills.
If THAT is your only concern, get a magic item like the "Cloak of elvenkind", only for disable device. The formula is:
Skill bonus (competence)->Bonus squared x 100 gp, meaning 5k Gold to buy a +5 item.(2.5k to make).

As said, the Barbarian-Rogue-Way to me, seems emphasis on strenght, for good, steady hits, even against stuff you can't sneak attack, and high survivability.
If for you the sneaky little dual-wielder putting out tons of sneak damage works better, be welcome. Do talk with your GM before, though. If there's a heavy tank and a flanking glass cannon, every intelligent enemy will trash you first...