Before I ask my questions, I'd like to get a couple of "known factors" out of the way. These are copied from the Pathfinder PRD, so if there is a discrepancy, please let me know:
(1) -- Base Unarmed Strike Rules
Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
(2) -- Improved Unarmed Strike (Feat)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Combat)
You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.
(3) -- Monk's Unarmed Strike
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Ok, now that the known rules are in place, here are my many questions:
An Unarmed Strike (without the feat) is considered weapon damage, but it is not a Natural Weapon. What then does it count as? Is it even considered a Weapon at all? Could a Paladin with or without Improved Unarmed Strike cast Holy Sword on their fists? Could a Wizard "Arcane Bond" with their Unarmed Strike? Could a Magus (Playtest) apply "Arcane Weapon" to their Unarmed Strikes?
Since the rules specifically state that an Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Weapon, is it even considered a Natural Attack? If not, again, what is it?
A Monk's Unarmed Strike specifically states that it counts as either a Manufactured Weapon or a Natural Weapon for the purposes of spells and effects. Does that mean a Level 5+ Wizard could enhance the Monk's unarmed strikes as if it was any other Manufactured Weapon (being that the ability to enhance manufactured weapons is the 'effect' of Craft Arms and Equipment)? If so, could a Wizard then enchant different areas of the monk's body differently (A +1 Flaming Fist, +1 Keen Knee, +2 Shocking Foot)? Could a Monk 1 / Wizard 1 Arcane Bond with their Unarmed Strike since the Bond itself is an "Effect" that can be placed on a "Weapon"?
Can you Disarm or Sunder an Unarmed Strike? Even if a normal Unarmed Strike or Improved Unarmed Strike is not a weapon, a Monk's is. Therefore a Monk's Unarmed Strike seems to qualify to be Sundered or Disarmed. If you then disarm a Monk's Unarmed Strike, what happens. If you attempt to Sunder a Monk's Unarmed Strike, how much HP/Hardness does it have? Would a Monk at less than half HP have the Broken Condition after a Sunder attempt?
There were a couple of others, but I can't think of them right now. I'll probably add more questions later. As much as this may seem like a joke topic, I'm actually looking for serious answers to these questions. I have multiple times wanted to Sunder our stupid Monk so he'd stop bragging about how he has the greatest weapon in the party at the moment (Amulet of Might Fists +2, the rest of us have at best +1 weapons.)
1) It's considered an 'armed' unarmed attack. See p.182 for clarification between unarmed strikes, 'armed' unarmed strikes and natural attacks.
2)(a) Yes, a Wizard could cast Magic Weapon on a Monk's fists for example.
(b) Yes.
(c)No, Arcane Bond is not an effect, it's a class ability.
3) No. Disarm and Sunder are not considered 'effects'.
After reading the full text of page 182, it still isn't quite clarified. The problem being is that an Unarmed Strike (1) Deals Weapon damage, (2) Counts as a Light Weapon, but (3) Is not a Natural Weapon. So we have an attack that counts as a weapon, is not a natural or a manufactured weapon, but is still somehow a weapon.
The spellcasting question involves two parts. The first, is that "is it only a Monk's Unarmed Strike that counts as a weapon for the purposes of spells, or does anyones"? This comes into play when dealing with the Improved Unarmed Strike Paladin that might attempt to cast Holy Sword on their fists. Unlike a Monk, RAW does not state that the Paladin's Unarmed Attack is a Weapon for Spells and Effects, so would that make it not qualify for the target of Holy Sword?
I'm not talking about simply casting Magic Weapon on the Monk, but using the Craft Magic Arms and Armor to actually add properties to the Monk itself, bypassing the need for an Amulet of Mighty Fists. This would work on the basis that the Feat Craft Arms and Armor counts as an effect. There was a huge discussion on this on another thread, but if the feats aren't considered effects, then Improved Natural Attack would not have to be re-worded to no longer work with Unarmed Strike.
Another problem is, I can't really find any distinction that states what an "Effect" really is. The "effect" of Arcane Bond starts the Wizard off with a "Weapon" that has special powers. A Monk 1 / Wizard 1 already possesses a "Weapon" (Unarmed Strike, which for the Monk is both a Natural Weapon and a Manufactured Weapon) that could possibly qualify for the feature. This question could also be asked about a Sorcerer / Wizard with the Draconic Bloodline. They gain a Claw attack (an official Natural Weapon). The Wizard's Arcane Bond states that it can be a Weapon, but makes no distinction of the weapon type (Natural, Manufactured, or Unarmed).
Magic Fang gives a distinction of applying to "One natural weapon or Unarmed Strike". This would seem to state that a character with 2 claw attacks would need to cast this spell on each claw seperately, and if they had a bite as well they would need to cast the spell a 3rd time. How many castings would you have to make on a Flurrying Monk to make all of their strikes magical? Is there a set number of "Unarmed Attacks", or is the monk a walking arsenal of infinite "Unarmed Weapons"?
Edit: Modified wording/spelling.
A monk is a weapon, individual parts of their body are not individual weapons. One casting of Magic Fang gives the monk a +x because you are casting it on the monk, and the monk can attack with whatever he wants, unlike someone with a natural claw and bite, which would require 2 castings to apply to everything (I take the wording to mean claw, bite, tail, etc, not left claw, right claw, same as weapon focus). Having said that, the reason a monk's attacks are not natural weapons, or natural attacks by definition, is because the rules for natural attacks were made for creatures, and function differently than +BAB attacks and iterative attacks for PCs or NPCs with class levels. They also didn't want monk's attacks to apply for the feats creatures can take (improved natural attack, multiattack, etc). In the end, wording not withstanding, the idea is treat a monk's attacks as if he were attacking with a weapon, and the damage being done is still being done by a "natural weapon".
A monk is still considered "unarmed", or "armed" if he isn't, or is wielding a manufactured weapon (respectively). This applies for enchanting as well. So putting aside the really convoluted wording of what a monks attacks are, for purposes of enchanting he is not armed if he is not holding a manufactured weapon. Anyone can have Magic Fang +x cast on their fists, the difference is, because of how the monk attacks, the casting applies to the monk, not just his fists. Other spells that don't apply specifically to natural weapons should not work on the monk, or on others fists.
The feat craft arms and armor imbues a weapon or armor with magical properties, but only items. The monk's body is considered a weapon for attacking and the like, but he is not a weapon, just considered one for certain in-game rules. That is why the amulet of Mighty Fists exists, it would otherwise be far cheaper and far better for the monk to imbue his body with magic... in that same vein, it would be far more beneficial for everyone to imbue themselves with +x resistance bonuses, and +x enhancement bonuses to stats instead of putting them on items because they couldn't be removed, and would give additional space for other magical effects.
That is how I understand the inner workings of a monk and crafting anyways :)
DarkFire82 wrote: I have multiple times wanted to Sunder our stupid Monk so he'd stop bragging about how he has the greatest weapon in the party at the moment (Amulet of Might Fists +2, the rest of us have at best +1 weapons.) Well the monk is right he does have the greatest weapon if he has an amulet of mighty fists +2 and the rest only have +1 weapons.
Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 costs 20k
+1 weapon costs 2k
If the others had an equal cost of a weapon they would have a +3 (with 2k left over) For about the same costs (21k) a fighter could have an adamantine keen +2 longsword
Now who has bragging rights?
Thank you. Most of that does indeed make sense, and it does give a decent interpretation of the rules. This does mean I'll need to inform our Unarmed Paladin that he'll need to take a level of Monk in order for Holy Sword to work correctly.
For the purposes of Craft Magic Arms and Armor, the question mostly comes with the fact that a Monk is considered both a Manufactured Weapon and a Natural Weapon for spells and effects. This would potentially let a Monk enhance his "Unarmed Attacks" (Note: Wildshape, Polymorph, and other -shape spells would still make the Amulet of Might Fists useful, as it does provide bonuses to all the Natural Attacks of these forms. In addition, a Monk could use one to change the magical properties of his attacks [+5 on the Monk and +5 Abilities on the Amulet, or a combination of the two]). The counter argument to the other part of that is that to the best of my knowledge no job feature makes a person count as a Ring, Staff, Robe, Armor, or otherwise any other Enchant-able item. Thus a person could not give themselves a +x enhancement bonus unless they somehow had a job feature that said "A person of this class count's as Manufactured Armor for spells and effects". Another point to this is, Magic Fang can be made permanent with the Permanency Spell. I haven't calculated the costs in yet, but I think it would/could be the same as "directly enchanting a monk".
The Disarm/Sunder is also an interesting question. I have yet to find a specific ruling on wether or not an Unarmed Strike can be sundered or disarmed. If a monk is badly injured (like a broken arm, or broken ribs) would it not potentially weaken their attacks to some extent? In the case that the Monk IS the weapon, this would mean that they would become 'Broken' at half HP (A weapon is broken when it reaches half it's total HP, at which point it gains a -2 to hit and to damage and it's critical modifiers go to 20 and x2).
PRD-Monk Unarmed strike wrote: A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It is the monks unarmed strike that counds as a manufactured weapon not the monk.
It applies only to spells and effects (bardic inspire courage) not to enchantments.
Therefore you CANNOT enchant a monk, he is NOT a weapon, it is only when he is striking with an unarmed attack does the monk count as a manufactured weapon. At all other points in time the monk is just a creature.
PRD-Permanency wrote: This spell makes the duration of certain other spells permanent. A spell that is permanent can still be dispelled. The duration becomes permanent not the spell itself.
It is cheaper to have a greater magic fang cast on the monk and made permanent, but one dispell magic or greater dispell magic and it can be all gone.
This then goes back to an earlier point. If the Monk's Unarmed Strike (however that strike is) applies to "Spells and Effects", are you saying that "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" is then not an "Effect" used by the Wizard targeting the Monk's Unarmed Strike? If it is not an "Effect", then would other Feats that enhance a weapon also not apply due to them not being "Effects"?
Edit:
Contextually, I do see this as possible. The money would still need to be spent to enhance the weapon, buying things like rare herbs and oils, or perhapse inks for tattoos or "hides" for skin grafts. Such an enchantment would not make the Amulet of Mighty Fists useless, though it might interfere with it (An Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 Enhancement on a Monk with a +1 Unarmed Strike wouldn't do anything). It would also allow a Monk to break the +5 barrier that they are currently at right now (An amulet of Mighty Fists cannot go beyond +5 total, and you can't exactly wear 2 of them). Again, this does also restrict the monk to some extent, as having a +3 Flaming Unarmed Strike would potentially restrict them from other magical enhancements, unless of course the Monk contains a number of potential "Unarmed Strikes". This would also potentially limit this quality, as each "Unarmed Strike" would have to be enhanced seperately, while an "Amulet of Mighty Fists" works on all of them at once.
As for your unarmed holy sworded paladin, I assume he has heavy armor, which has gauntlets, have him cast it on the gauntlet.
PRD-Equipment wrote: Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets. Now onto disarming and sundering. Just carefully read the rules.
PRD-Disarm wrote: your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice Creatures in incapable of dropping their hands or feet, so therefore they cannot be disarmed.
PRD-Sunder wrote: You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent A monk is not holding or wearing himself. Therefore you cannot even attempt a sunder.
I guess if two monks were shaking hands at that one split second you could attempt a sunder. Or if the monk was taking off his show you could attempt to sunder his foot.
PRD-Sunder wrote: you deal damage to the item normally Oh well, the monk is not an item.
If the monk was dead he would be considered an item, corpses are just items, so at that point sunder away.
DarkFire82 wrote: This then goes back to an earlier point. If the Monk's Unarmed Strike (however that strike is) applies to "Spells and Effects", are you saying that "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" is then not an "Effect" used by the Wizard targeting the Monk's Unarmed Strike? If it is not an "Effect", then would other Feats that enhance a weapon also not apply due to them not being "Effects"? I assume you need a clear rule so you stop trying to enchant your monk
PRD-Craft Arms and Armor wrote: The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide Even if you think the monks strike is an item(which it is not) it is NOT masterworked and therefore cannot be enchanted.
Also it is an enhancement bonus that magic arms and armor get, which is not an effect as you keep trying to imply.
DarkFire82 wrote: For the purposes of Craft Magic Arms and Armor, the question mostly comes with the fact that a Monk is considered both a Manufactured Weapon and a Natural Weapon for spells and effects. Im my opinion, this is a non-issue. In order to craft a magic weapon or armor, the creator has to use a masterwork item as the base upon which to work his or her energies. Masterwork weapons grant an inherent +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls on the basis of their superior craftsmanship.
A monk's unarmed attack, though considered a manufactured weapon, is not granted that inherent +1 bonus to attack rolls. As such it is not considered a masterwork manufactured weapon, and cannot be enchanted using Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
DarkFire82 wrote: The Disarm/Sunder is also an interesting question. I have yet to find a specific ruling on wether or not an Unarmed Strike can be sundered or disarmed. The description of the monk's unarmed strike actually clarifies this issue:
"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." (Core Rulebook 58)
This circumstances where such an attack is considered a manufactured or natural weapon are specified, and do not include Sunder or Disarm attempts. Additionally, both maneuvers specifically target items that can be dropped or are worn; as a monk's unarmed attack is neither, it cannot be targeted by such attacks.
EDIT: Beaten to both point; I need to type faster.
AS to the Unarmed Paladin, he has an Oath to his Diety such that he is not allowed to use metal weapons or armor. Though wooden gauntlets sound possible... I think he'd be better off taking a level of Monk at this point. In the game, the Monk was the first person to be able to upgrade to a +2 weapon. The rest of us should get ours over the next 2 sessions. The main complaint by the rest of the group is that in order to give the monk a +2 Weapon, he needs a magic item worth far more than what he should have right now. The monk's honor rule is that he may use neither held weapons nor armor (he's actually a halfling monk running around in the nude... Jewelry is ok, but robes/clothes/armor is not). I was lucky, as the Summoner in the group I'm merely cursed with the fact that all Townspeople treat me as "Unfriendly" at best.
DarkFire82 wrote: An Unarmed Strike (without the feat) is considered weapon damage, but it is not a Natural Weapon. What then does it count as? Is it even considered a Weapon at all? Could a Paladin with or without Improved Unarmed Strike cast Holy Sword on their fists? Could a Wizard "Arcane Bond" with their Unarmed Strike? Could a Magus (Playtest) apply "Arcane Weapon" to their Unarmed Strikes?
Since the rules specifically state that an Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Weapon, is it even considered a Natural Attack? If not, again, what is it?
Unarmed strikes are treated as weapons for feats, iterative attacks, twf, etc. (see Beastiary entry on natural attack). However, they provoke AoO unless user has Improved Unarmed Strike. Monks are a bit different. While they are treated as weapons in many ways, Unarmed Strikes (either by a monk or other), do not become an object.
DarkFire82 wrote: A Monk's Unarmed Strike specifically states that it counts as either a Manufactured Weapon or a Natural Weapon for the purposes of spells and effects. Does that mean a Level 5+ Wizard could enhance the Monk's unarmed strikes as if it was any other Manufactured Weapon (being that the ability to enhance manufactured weapons is the 'effect' of Craft Arms and Equipment)? If so, could a Wizard then enchant different areas of the monk's body differently (A +1 Flaming Fist, +1 Keen Knee, +2 Shocking Foot)? Could a Monk 1 / Wizard 1 Arcane Bond with their Unarmed Strike since the Bond itself is an "Effect" that can be placed on a "Weapon"? A monk's US can be enhanced as the target of an effect that can effect a weapon or natural weapon. For example, it can be the target of magic weapon and/or natural fang. (Stacking rules apply)
No, it can not be the target of an enhanced weapon via Craft Arms and Armor. Only masterwork weapons can be made into magic weapons.
A bonded item must be an object. An unarmed strike is not an object. It is how someone uses their body to attack in a way that is like a weapon.
DarkFire82 wrote: Can you Disarm or Sunder an Unarmed Strike? Even if a normal Unarmed Strike or Improved Unarmed Strike is not a weapon, a Monk's is. No. You can disarm or sunder an item (read: object).
DarkFire82 wrote: AS to the Unarmed Paladin, he has an Oath to his Diety such that he is not allowed to use metal weapons or armor. Though wooden gauntlets sound possible... I think he'd be better off taking a level of Monk at this point. In the game, the Monk was the first person to be able to upgrade to a +2 weapon. The rest of us should get ours over the next 2 sessions. The main complaint by the rest of the group is that in order to give the monk a +2 Weapon, he needs a magic item worth far more than what he should have right now. The monk's honor rule is that he may use neither held weapons nor armor (he's actually a halfling monk running around in the nude... Jewelry is ok, but robes/clothes/armor is not). I was lucky, as the Summoner in the group I'm merely cursed with the fact that all Townspeople treat me as "Unfriendly" at best. Your group appears to enjoy nerfing the abilities of the characters. :)To each their own. I'd agree that your paladin should be looking at some monk levels if he's gonna be saddled with these flaws.
Thanks for the help. The Masterwork part of Craft Arms and Armor is the key to that one.
Unlike many feats such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization which actually state Unarmed Strike, Arcane Strike does not. Would a Wizard require either a level of Monk or Gauntlets in order to Arcane Strike with an Unarmed Attack. Also, due to the "Weapon" nature of the Gauntlets, can a Wizard cast and use a touch spell through them, or do they have to have a Gauntlet-less hand to do so? This is based on an Eldritch Knight build one of our other players was thinking about going in to.
Don't have time to check my rule book, but I'm sure I'll be corrected shortly if anything I say is incorrect.
DarkFire82 wrote: Unlike many feats such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization which actually state Unarmed Strike, Arcane Strike does not. Would a Wizard require either a level of Monk or Gauntlets in order to Arcane Strike with an Unarmed Attack. A strict unarmed attack is not defined as a weapon. Arcane Strike specifically enhances weapons. Your wizard would need to take a dip into monk or wear gauntlets for the feat to function in this situation.
DarkFire82 wrote: Also, due to the "Weapon" nature of the Gauntlets, can a Wizard cast and use a touch spell through them, or do they have to have a Gauntlet-less hand to do so? This is based on an Eldritch Knight build one of our other players was thinking about going in to. I do not believe touch attack require flesh-to-flesh contact in order to function. If they did, the target of such an attack should still benefit from part, if not all, of his or her armor bonus to AC. Additionally, if a gauntlet could block touch attacks, heavy-armor wearers such as paladins and some cleric-types would be unable to utilize abilities like lay on hands and cure light wounds.
I'm guessing physical contact is all that is required, and for the purpose of this situation a gauntlet would not block such an effect.
His main basis was in delivering touch spells (like Shocking Grasp) through an Unarmed Strike, and was going to use Arcane Strike to increase the physical damage slightly. The problem I see with this is that the Gauntlet as a weapon (while treated like an unarmed strike) doesn't mention if you can also cast touch spells through it. He didn't want to take a dip into monk, as he already has 3 classes to contend with now, and doesn't want to add a 4th before taking Eldritch Knight (Rogue1/Fighter1/Wizard2). [Invisibility, Shocking Grasp (Hold Charge), Sneak Attack while delivering the spell through an Unarmed Strike].
In the current game, each of our characters has a flaw or an oath, but gains some benefit for it. While the Monk can't use Armor or Weapons, he is treated as one size larger for his Unarmed Strike Damage. The Paladin lost the ability to use Metal, but gains access to the entire Cleric Spell list as well as the Paladin one. My character has social problems, but gained a really nice race from it (Races of the Wild, Catfolk [Having 22 DEX at level 1 is sweet, my Eidolon is currently built as a Quadruped Tentacle Monster. And yes, the character is female at the GM's request.]).
DarkFire82 wrote: The problem I see with this is that the Gauntlet as a weapon (while treated like an unarmed strike) doesn't mention if you can also cast touch spells through it. After taking a brief skim through the book, I hold to my statements on this matter. With the exception of a breastplate, all medium and heavy armor in the Core Rulebook include gauntlets. So let's look at it this way:
Would you require a medium armor-wearing cleric to take the time to remove his gauntlet before casting cure light wounds? A heavy armor-wearing paladin before utilizing his lay on hands? If the answers to these questions are yes, then the wizard should not be able to deliver touch spells through a gauntlet either. However, if you do allow the use of such abilities while wearing gauntlets, then the wizard should be allowed to do so as well.
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