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You've just answered your own question.
So Mr. Snarky, does the outsider simply die and not get reincarnated? Or does the hex work at all?
I hit the FAQ on the OP's post, because snarky answers are no substitute for authoritative ones.
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The hex refers to Reincarnation spell which doesn't work on outsiders.
False.
The reincarnation spell table noted is the one for Humanoids, each creature type should theoretically have its own table. It specifically mentions that "a similar chart" should be generated for non-humanoids.The only guarantee that reincarnate makes is that you come back as the same creature type.
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Outsider
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. An outsider has the following features...• Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be...
Sorry, but while reincarnate may work on monstrous humanoids, it doesn't work on outsiders.
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Sorry, but while reincarnate may work on monstrous humanoids, it doesn't work on outsiders.Outsider
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. An outsider has the following features...• Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be...
It works on native outsiders, sorry (I forgot that it wasn't the case for *all* outsiders).
*Other* outsiders would just die and not come back the way the rule is written. Or, to make it less exploitable, you could just make an outsider chart and roll. I wanna see a demon come back as an archon and see how it reacts. Don't outsiders that die outside of their plane of existence reform inside of it?
If a dragon failed the save against this it would really suck, since you come back as "young adult" and dragons lose a *lot* from that age drop.
So Mr. Snarky, does the outsider simply die and not get reincarnated? Or does the hex work at all?
Sorry mate, I misunderstood the question.
Okay, it says that those that fail their Will save are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate.
So 1) they're slain; and 2) Reincarnation as per the spell does not affect them; therefore 3) they return to their home plane.
From the Fiendish Codex II p.18:
A devil slain in the Nine Hells stays dead. A devil slain outside Baator devolves into a puddle of foamy, stinking ooze over a period of 3 to 9 minutes. This residual soul essence registers as both magical and evil. Any mortal ingesting it must make a successful DC 20 Fortitude save or become sickened for 2d4 hours.
Whether or not its residue is disturbed, a slain devil returns to Baator 99 years later, in its original form, at full hit points. This method of transport leaves behind any physical possessions the devil might have carried, including magic items and treasure, even if they originated in Baator. Depending on the nature of its defeat, the devil might experience no repercussions, or it might face demotion for failure. Lowly devils are the likeliest to suffer demotion.
*edit* Same with Demons, not sure about other outsiders, but i'm guessing a similar fate.
Mate, what i quoted about demons and devils has been that way ever since Fiendish Folio.
Like i said, there's no source that i can find stating what happens with other outsiders, but can you tell me why they wouldn't be governed by the same rules that affect LE and CE outsiders. Or is it just that they suck, therefore banished. As Asmodeus will tell you the rules of the multiverse apply equally.
btw, how cool is it that Asmodeus got promoted through a contract. cool factor 10+
snarky stuff (hey that's my job!)
Well first off:
•Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
•Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
So any form of reincarnate will not work.
That part is established so lets move on.
Forced Reincarnation (Su): The witch causes a creature within 30 feet to die A Will save negates this effect. Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
I would go with this:
The curse in question uses the word "and" -- not "could be" not "possibly" but "and". So you must die and be reincarnated in order for the curse to work on you -- if you can't be reincarnated then this curse can't affect you since it can't reincarnate you. It's a total package deal with no way to not pass "Go" other than succeeding on the will save.
I would go with this:
The curse in question uses the word "and" -- not "could be" not "possibly" but "and". So you must die and be reincarnated in order for the curse to work on you -- if you can't be reincarnated then this curse can't affect you since it can't reincarnate you. It's a total package deal with no way to not pass "Go" other than succeeding on the will save.
I completely agree with this reading. Otherwise, on a high-level campaign (where Outsiders abound), a Witch could wipe out 'permanently' all her enemies with her at-will Hex ability (at least for 99 years means 'for the whole duration of the rest of the campaign', after all)...
Just my 2c.
Abraham, can you explain me how is this...
So you must die and be reincarnated in order for the curse to work on you -- if you can't be reincarnated then this curse can't affect you since it can't reincarnate you. It's a total package deal with no way to not pass "Go" other than succeeding on the will save....different from this?
But it could also be said that the two effects (death/reincarnation) are not one after the other (the word used twice is immediately, after all) so if Reincarnation has no effect then Forced Reincarnation has no effect either. The Outsider is simply immune to the whole thing. I think we need a FAQ on this, but it's also pretty clear that the original intent of this Hex was not to be the Instant Killer of Outsiders.Of course, I agree with the latter interpretation. We don't want save or die at will for Witches against Outsiders. But I still think that an official interpretation could benefit all of those who won't be persuaded by our words.
I used fewer and smaller words, without referencing the need for an FAQ. Those would be the differences. However if you mean by content of what was said then we are in agreement. I was simply quoting you for funsies.
That and you had a convent reference point for throwing in the rules quotes that back up my opinions, since you pointed out that the fiendish codex doesn't really count here (which it doesn't) and asked for rules citation to back up a position. Mainly to clarify the point that it doesn't matter which setting you use since it's covered in the basic system that reincarnate won't work period.
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Reincarnate, if you look at it, has some wiggle room, specifically the "Other -- DM option" business. The other important thing to look at is this line: A creature that's been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be returned to life by this spell.
Now, I think it can be argued pretty easily that Forced Reincarnate is indeed a death effect and any GM who said it wasn't and that a character's Scarab of Protection would stop it was being a weenie. That established, I think that we can agree that Forced Reincarnation, and the text thereof, intends that you use Reincarnation as a reference point with reinterpretation in case of contradictions. Ergo, even though Reincarnate doesn't work on creatures killed by death effects, Forced Reincarnate does, because Forced Reincarnate is a death effect itself.
No, this is not an official FAQ, but following that logic, it's reasonable to have it work on outsiders with the GM making up a quick "GMs option" table on the fly so the witch can't just Forced Reincarnate the angry efreet into a halfling. So something like this:
EFREET: Foolish mortal! What canst thou do against one of the lords of elemental fire?
WITCH: I will curse thee, Mr. Efreet! May thou comest back as something disconcerting! Bibetty-Bobetty-Lamashtu!
GM decides there are four main types of djinn and two sexes. He rolls a d4 and flips a coin. *POOF!*
FEMALE DJINN: Eek! Though hast made me a fly girl!
Now yes, this does take a judgment call. I would reincarnate elementals as other elemental. Outsiders either as other outsiders of their same plane--devils as devils, demons as demons--or else decide that just as reincarnation can bring back a soul of a mortal that goes to another plane to become an outsider, it does the same trick here, and your succubus can suddenly being reincarnated as a half-orc but with all her character classes and levels attached. Similarly, undead could be brought back to life in this fashion because even though it says that Reincarnate doesn't work on undead, it says that in the same sentence as the business about death effects, which Forced Reincarnation trumps.
This would also make it so that if a witch wanted to bring someone back to life who was unfortunately just dead, she could get her Hag coven together, cast Animate Dead, then Forced Reincarnate the zombie or skeleton into some other living creature--and you know witches would be totally up for this. It's completely witchy, and would utterly freak out the paladins and even the druids.