I am running CotC with PF rules and a party of four. I allowed them 25 point-buy and disallowed any exotic 3.5 classes or feats.
Now they barely made it through EoA, mainly due to the problem that they were chasing wild geese and red herrings and ignoring the adventure blatantly.
Metagaming aside, they were hot on the Arkonas' trail and even wanted to confront the Queen in person at third level. Even after sending top-notch assassins and a demon after them they could not be dissuaded.
They even accosted the Chelian Ambassador in person and gave him the impression they wanted to blackmail him.
Now we entered 7DttG and I seriously hope they will soon get "the drift".
Maybe I am strewing to few clues or they only pick up the wrong ones, but I cannot shake the feeling they are trying to force their heads through the wall. The main problem is, they sometimes ask the right questions, but the AP as written does not provide the answers yet.
I am tired of trying to lead them away from doing stupid things, but when I let them confront the Arkonas out of step, i.e. at 6th level, I can start to prepare a new AP as well.
How do I handle a group that does not "see" the red thread?
I am running CotC with PF rules and a party of four. I allowed them 25 point-buy and disallowed any exotic 3.5 classes or feats.
Now they barely made it through EoA, mainly due to the problem that they were chasing wild geese and red herrings and ignoring the adventure blatantly.
Metagaming aside, they were hot on the Arkonas' trail and even wanted to confront the Queen in person at third level. Even after sending top-notch assassins and a demon after them they could not be dissuaded.
** spoiler omitted **They even accosted the Chelian Ambassador in person and gave him the impression they wanted to blackmail him.
Now we entered 7DttG and I seriously hope they will soon get "the drift".
** spoiler omitted **Maybe I am strewing to few clues or they only pick up the wrong ones, but I cannot shake the feeling they are trying to force their heads through the wall. The main problem is, they sometimes ask the right questions, but the AP as written does not provide the answers yet.
I am tired of trying to lead them away from doing stupid things, but when I let them confront the Arkonas out of step, i.e. at 6th level, I can start to prepare a new AP as well.
How do I handle a group that does not "see" the red thread?
If they ask the right questions give them answers to put them back on the railroad. If it means having an NPC lie to them do it.
In other words if they want to do the answer to X they have to do Y. If doing Y happens to lead to B(next subplot) then so be it. You may also have players that are better off in a sandbox game as opposed to a linear one.
You may also have players that are better off in a sandbox game as opposed to a linear one.
I seriously doubt that...
I am trying to not railroad them too much. I giv e them a bit of leeway, but that leaves them frustrated if NPCs don't tell them all the little details. They expect them to spill the beans on who killed the King, etc., discounting the possibility that not everyone of them is part of the great NPC conspiracy that knows everything in their collective mind.
They are stumped and frustrated when they don't get the info they expect and I am reluctant to send them on another rogue errand that does not further the meta plot.
The next problem is, especially the sorcerer tends to destroy evidence, by burning down NPCs and houses. He keeps insisting that Burning Hands makes things catch fire. Despite my best efforts to explain that things and people get a save to not catch on fire, he insists the spell stated otherwise, so I let him have his way, resulting in conflagration. (I have several times pointed out the excessive use of wood in Korvosan constructions and the summer heat and aridity.)
They lost a certain amount of loot by torching the encounter location while defeating their foes.
The next problem is, especially the sorcerer tends to destroy evidence, by burning down NPCs and houses.
This would tend to be considered against the law in the vast majority of cities anywhere. At least the city guard would be out to find them if they keep doing this, and eventually maybe even the Sable Marines or the Hellknights.
As for them wanting to go straight after the Queen.. Let them. Let them see first-hand that she isn't an appropriate encounter for a 3rd level party at all. Not only is she herself far above that level, but she also has bodyguards and regular palace guards aplenty.
Once they realize that they're in over their heads, maybe they'll start looking for the right clues :)
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Another possibility is to fast forward some of the Npc action.
Then let them know what happens to Endrin.
I know this one off-stage scene backed my party away from direct confrontation.
This would tend to be considered against the law in the vast majority of cities anywhere. At least the city guard would be out to find them if they keep doing this, and eventually maybe even the Sable Marines or the Hellknights.
They already need to pay a 4000gp fine for burning down a poorhouse and harbouring a fugitive (member of the thieves' guild), Cressida is not amused.
They have alienated members of at least two temples (Desna and Pharasma) and still expect them to fit them with cures, scrolls and wands, because the group is clearly fighting for the "greater good" and they become frustrated when the temples hold back. Same goes for the guard.
They ignore all NPCs that may help them (dealers, etc.) or alienate them (priests, guards).
Hm, yeah... out of their league... at level 3 they were not dissuaded by three level 6 assassins... maybe I just let it slide too much.
I hope once they hear about the ship and the coffers, they'll be able to put two and two together.
You may also have players that are better off in a sandbox game as opposed to a linear one.I seriously doubt that...
I am trying to not railroad them too much. I giv e them a bit of leeway, but that leaves them frustrated if NPCs don't tell them all the little details. They expect them to spill the beans on who killed the King, etc., discounting the possibility that not everyone of them is part of the great NPC conspiracy that knows everything in their collective mind.
They are stumped and frustrated when they don't get the info they expect and I am reluctant to send them on another rogue errand that does not further the meta plot.The next problem is, especially the sorcerer tends to destroy evidence, by burning down NPCs and houses. He keeps insisting that Burning Hands makes things catch fire. Despite my best efforts to explain that things and people get a save to not catch on fire, he insists the spell stated otherwise, so I let him have his way, resulting in conflagration. (I have several times pointed out the excessive use of wood in Korvosan constructions and the summer heat and aridity.)
They lost a certain amount of loot by torching the encounter location while defeating their foes.
I see they just need to learn to work harder for information. I would tell(outside of character) them not everyone knows everything. Corpses might catch on fire, but living people don't. I would also have these things investigated game-wise, as another poster suggested. In a world of magic it is not too hard to catch a criminal if he kills the wrong person. I think once they start receiving realistic consequences for their actions they will start to change their behavior. Direct confrontation with the queen is never a good idea.
Hm, yeah... out of their league... at level 3 they were not dissuaded by three level 6 assassins... maybe I just let it slide too much.
How did that encounter play out? A level 3 party should at least be severely injured by a CR 9 encounter, and in most cases shouldn't be able to defeat it.
Maybe the issue is that the players feel they can do whatever they want since there are no real repercussions? Or maybe they think of the game as similar to a videogame, rather than as a roleplaying game with a storytelling element?
How did that encounter play out? A level 3 party should at least be severely injured by a CR 9 encounter, and in most cases shouldn't be able to defeat it.
It was intedned as a serious warning, I could have killed them off without warning:
They were sitting in their usual drinking hall, having cleared it of patrons and waiting for their "trap" to close on their hapless victim.The door opened on a skinny fellow in threadbare clothes, who seemed to be considering if he really wanted to enter the inn nad eyeing some coins in his hands. After several moments in the open door he finally decided to walk up to the counter and order some food. -enough time for the invisible attackers to get into position (or had I been more vicious, for the mage across the street to end their life with a scroll of cloudkill-
The encounter went badly for the assassins, mainly because it was one of those evenings when I rolled 1s and 2s with frustrating regularity.
The Enchanter was not able to nail the fighter. But they nearly killed the Cleric.
I'd really hat to kill one of them off just to make a statement, the group has a nice composition.
The group is not my usual gaming group and I have not known them overly long, but they are used to more straight-forward bash the monster adventures, it seems.
I have styled several encounters to the groups backstories to give themgreater incentive and also because some of the encounters seemed a little out of context, e.g. I changed the derro into a mad halfling Necromancer (halflings are wicked to begin with).
Don't let the PC's walk over everyone, make them obey laws, don't give extra information, and penalize them for burning down the city. At some point they need to be told either in game or out that the queen is way too tough and once they have that warning its up to them. if they figured something out by meta-gaming I'd have a serious talk with them. that's not how this game should work and if they aren't going to play along then they deserve to be killed without mercy. it takes the fun out of it for everyone when players meta-game like this and refuse to act in character. Good characters would not burn the house down, don't alienate good temples, and don't expect everything to be handed to them. if they can't handle the challenge of actually playing a RPG then tell them to go find a 1st person shooter and have at it.
edit: I'd talk with them in character again, and then ooc. Explain how this works and if they want to continue they have to change their way. Don't kill 1 to threaten the group, that will piss off 1 person more than the rest. TPK, swift and brutal, with a twisted smile on your face. Use every advantage the queen and her guards have and enjoy the slaughter. They shouldn't have a chance in the abyss of walking out alive. When the last PC drops, and they begin to complain, tell them that next time they should consider what a hero would do, and not what they as spoiler ral world brats would do.
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It may indeed be time for an ooc chat. Explain to them where your frustration is coming from and give them examples to help them understand. It's possible it is just not their style of game. If you can't come to some compromise on how they'll behave in character then it is time to change games or change players.
It's also possible they just don't understand and you can help that by pointing out that there will be serious consequences for continuing to act outrageously or confronting foes that are too dangerous for them.
Finally - the point of any game is to have fun. If they are not having fun with the intrigue or confusion this AP can be run in a more straightforward manner. Let them know beyond a shadow of a doubt who the badguys are and that the badguys are untouchable at this time do to powerful allies. The way to beat them is to follow the rails through quests to level up and get more powerful a la computer RPGS. It's hamfisted, but whatever is fun is the right way to play.
How did that encounter play out? A level 3 party should at least be severely injured by a CR 9 encounter, and in most cases shouldn't be able to defeat it.
It was intedned as a serious warning, I could have killed them off without warning:
They were sitting in their usual drinking hall, having cleared it of patrons and waiting for their "trap" to close on their hapless victim.The door opened on a skinny fellow in threadbare clothes, who seemed to be considering if he really wanted to enter the inn nad eyeing some coins in his hands. After several moments in the open door he finally decided to walk up to the counter and order some food. -enough time for the invisible attackers to get into position (or had I been more vicious, for the mage across the street to end their life with a scroll of cloudkill-
The encounter went badly for the assassins, mainly because it was one of those evenings when I rolled 1s and 2s with frustrating regularity.
The Enchanter was not able to nail the fighter. But they nearly killed the Cleric.I'd really hat to kill one of them off just to make a statement, the group has a nice composition.
The group is not my usual gaming group and I have not known them overly long, but they are used to more straight-forward bash the monster adventures, it seems.
I have styled several encounters to the groups backstories to give themgreater incentive and also because some of the encounters seemed a little out of context, e.g. I changed the derro into a mad halfling Necromancer (halflings are wicked to begin with).
Next time let the fight go until one of them dies or they run away. I would even chase them for a while. It was often when musing over a new character sheet that I had epiphanies about what not to do in a game.
When the last PC drops, and they begin to complain, tell them that next time they should consider what a hero would do, and not what they as spoiler ral world brats would do.
It is not even about being a hero. It is just plain common sense. I think these guys have had DM's that let them do what they want so their view of the game is twisted. I would tell them "actions will have realistic consequences from this point on", and if they get out of line, they would find out first hand.
Spoiler:They forgot all about the plague ship...
That is a good thing, that encounter would rip them to pieces at 3rd level.
(Not sure if this is a spoiler or not, tagged it to be on the safe side.)
** spoiler omitted **That is a good thing, that encounter would rip them to pieces at 3rd level.
** spoiler omitted **
They did...
They killed his bodyguard, the ettercap and Barvasi himself. In the process the sorcerer placed 2 bh's on Barvasi's leather throne and wooden dais...
Eel's End has subsequently been overtaken by the Mistress of the House of Clouds. The party has not taken advantage of that fact yet...
As for the plague ship, the party is now level 6 and I changed the sea hag encounter (which I don't like and think is not really backed up by Korvosan history) to an encounter with Murray Dick, the White Eel, an advanced giant morray eel.
The sorcerer is VERY fond of burning hands and keeps insisting that it it ignites flammable objects and he even scoffs when I say, that objects get a reflex save.
Funniest thing, now he accuses me to rule the burning too harshly, because the group starts getting annoyed with all the burnt down stuff.
I think I will take the advice and talk to them again should the next session be bad as well.
ps: excuse my bad english
While I agree that killing a player makes one player more angry then the rest I think the lesson is usually adequately driven home for the whole group nonetheless.
This group is behaving as if they can't die. It appears that it has become necessary to disabuse them of that notion. I've usually found that this is a lesson that won't need to be repeated - at least not for 5 levels or so.
Just threatening them with high level attackers that they are sure that they will eventually defeat won't work - they are adventurers, facing death is what they do. Plus that high level assassin must be worth bucko XP...so really this is just an early Christmas present.
A character death may help solve your 'blind' players as well since it takes a lot of 'we'll just go in guns blazing' options off the table making the more subtle ones the AP presumes seem a lot more appealing.
I am due to begin running CotCT in January for my regular group which is 7 players big. I know for a fact that as soon as they learn the king is dead they will jump to the conclusion that the queen did it. I hope the broach scene will allow me to subdue this though process a little bit, but I am certain that by the time the Trinia chase scene ends the party will want to confront the queen.
Personally, I want this to ramp up quick. Once the point of no return is reached then it will be in the PCs face everyday. The queen is an evil b$##!, but she is still by law the queen. I am really looking forward to the Gray Maidens hitting the street, they are going to harrass the party all the time, and once the Mantis expose themselves in Old Korvosa it will be game on.
I think putting the smack down on your PC's was a great first step. If they have been openly "anti-queen" have gray maidens visting them at all of the most inopertune moments. Also, have the queens PR people get envolved. Have newspapers, town criers etc attempting to further discredit the party. Maybe the PC's best fence is presured into no longer buying/selling them goods that they need.
If they complain you are unfair just tell them you reap what you sow.
I am due to begin running CotCT in January for my regular group which is 7 players big. I know for a fact that as soon as they learn the king is dead they will jump to the conclusion that the queen did it. I hope the broach scene will allow me to subdue this though process a little bit, but I am certain that by the time the Trinia chase scene ends the party will want to confront the queen.
Personally, I want this to ramp up quick. Once the point of no return is reached then it will be in the PCs face everyday. The queen is an evil b!%#*, but she is still by law the queen. I am really looking forward to the Gray Maidens hitting the street, they are going to harrass the party all the time, and once the Mantis expose themselves in Old Korvosa it will be game on.
I think putting the smack down on your PC's was a great first step. If they have been openly "anti-queen" have gray maidens visting them at all of the most inopertune moments. Also, have the queens PR people get envolved. Have newspapers, town criers etc attempting to further discredit the party. Maybe the PC's best fence is presured into no longer buying/selling them goods that they need.
If they complain you are unfair just tell them you reap what you sow.
I'd at least try to keep them working on the Queens side until the chase scene. One of the most powerful aspects of this AP is that he big bad and the Party interact early and know who each other are. That makes this whole AP personal for the players and its potent stuff in terms of the overall fun.
The other issue is balancing 'The Queen is Evil' with them continuing to work with their contact in the guard. Have them break that off and you loose a lot of the links in the adventure and your giving up some of the most emotionally powerful scenes in the AP. In particular you really want your PCs to hand over Trinia because the scene where she is almost executed is phenomenal and really introduces a good NPC who helps move the plot forward later. You'd really like it if they where at the announcement when the Queen dissolves the Sable Guard and lives through an assassination attempt. Finally I think you really need a scene where they confront their guard contact after this event and she is going to pieces (I'd use drunk as a skunk and toasting the players with a bottle of wine when they come "To the Death of Korvosa - Long live Korvosa!"...chug, chug, chug.
In the end hunted by the Queen is good but I feel you should do everything in your power not to have that just turn into your players going underground and not having any of the awesome role playing scenes that this AP provides. Its in large part of the AP that everything just kind of slides out of control and yet the PCs are so connected with some of the movers and shakers that makes this AP so awesome.
Furthermore be careful with the awesome scenes of the players being hunted by the Grey Maidens. I think you have two, maybe three times where you can pull off 'tromp, tromp, tromp' Grey Maidens are coming! before your players are bored with the whole idea and will yawn the next time you try and pull it off. Simply put fight Grey Maidens again and again just gets repetitive. You can throw in an assassination attempt as well though the PA already has a couple. Maybe a bounty hunter. Thing is most of this you can do within the plot as it stands.
Jeremy I wrote a longer post but it was devouered by the messageboard monster lol. I shall rewrite a litte latter, but in short I agree many of your points, thanks.
I drove one statement home at the end of EoA: The Queen has an eye on you.
The group was still undecided if the real culprit is Ileosa, Sabina or Neolandus. But after it became clear that the lower class populace was not fond of the Queen the party thought they had already won, whoever was the real murderer.
Trinia was safe, the common folk was rising up and it seemed certain, the Ileosa was involved in some fishy business.
Then came the call to attend the execution of the captured Trinia (a fake Trinia to boot, which kindled the party's ire immensly). Ileosa used the execution to drive another point home, namely that their future actions will not go unnoticed: Before the execution the group was honored by the Queen as model citizens of Korvosa and Heroes of the people. To the effect that everybody now believes the party to be Ileosa's henchmen. They are faced with a mixture of awe and mistrust. Still they believe the awarded batch grants them some advantages, to their dismay this has still to show...
Whatever you do, walter, don't let them catch on the Arkonas too soon!
I made the mistake of having Vancaskerkin break down after being confronted with the meat deal and have him spill the beans on Vimanda, giving her name.
A kerosine-doused handkerchief could not have ignited faster than the party. All of a sudden they were hot on the trail of house Arkona, believing them to be at the heart of a conspiracy to overthrow the reign of House Arabasti, leading in the end to the aforementioned assassination attempt (they were not particularly subtle at spying on the Arkonas).
Oh my, I killed the Cleric!
They rushed through the tunnel, the cleric blazing Daylight, announcing them well ahead of time.
The group was able to dispatch of the first two dire rats and wererats pretty quickly, but then they got in a deadlock with Girrigz (Rizzo in my story) and the rest of his goons. Between rock and hard place for the sorcerer, the cleric and the fighter. The ranger was uselessly sniping from the back doing no damage.
Then after a massive hit drom the fighter, Rizzo was able to down the cleric for good (-18) and the sorcerer followed the next round (-10 stable).
My group is level 6 and I had tuned the fight to PF rules, making Rizzo a lvl 7 wererat fighter.
Though I played fair, I feel a little guilty. Cleric dead, sorcerer almost dead, fighter down to 13hp and Ranger not a scratch...
Wand of False Life - do you think this can be only cast by a user on themself or as a touch on others, too?
Oh my, I killed the Cleric!
** spoiler omitted **
Though I played fair, I feel a little guilty. Cleric dead, sorcerer almost dead, fighter down to 13hp and Ranger not a scratch...Wand of False Life - do you think this can be only cast by a user on themself or as a touch on others, too?
If the spell is personal, whoever activates the wand gains the spell. It can't be used on anyone else.
It's fine. It sounds like they didn't bring any silver weapons or arrows. Pretty bad move from them. If they were experienced, they should've seen the "doing no damage" coming. If they weren't, maybe letting them know that you can buy silver weapons and such would've been good.
It's easy for players to blame the DM instead of themselves when they can't pierce DR... this leads to them not getting any items that can pierce DR, and being mad when "you know we can't deal with this!"
If you got any of this then, really prepare to get a lot of it against the