Hi, I intend to start playing in an online campaign soon, and we would start at level one. I had the idea of trying a halfling rogue who focuses on archery, and between halflings not being particularly strong and it being an urban character I thought crossbow would be an interesting choice thematically. However, I am not sure how good a crossbow is for a rogue mechanically. I would win a point or two of damage over a shortbow (depending if I go with light or heavy crossbow), and a bit of range, but it seems to me I'd need a couple of feats just to get rid of the penalties crossbows have in reloading and AoOs, and feats are something rogues don't have that much of, especially at low levels.
I checked a few other threads, but in general I think they focused more on fighters than rogues. The APG is allowed as far as I know... the Crossbow Sniper feat from PHB II might eventually help if the DM allows it, but it requires a few other feats first. Have people here tried similar characters, and how do they work at low levels?
Whether cross or regular bow rogues, and, in fact, all ranged rogues suffer from one HUGE problem: You can't flank with a ranged weapon. This makes it a huge pain to get sneak attacks. Unless you have a plan to get around this, you're better off playing a Ranger, or a Fighter with a Rogue dip. Really. You will do NO damage at all.
You could be a skill monkey Rogue who's only effective outside of combat, or his combat effectiveness comes from clever uses of skills rather than weapon damage. But don't expect to sneak attack anything, ever.
That said, I've played Crossbow Fighters before, and they work pretty well. You only need one extra feat, The Crossbow Sniper feat is neat and translates well, but take a look ate the Crossbow Fighter archtype in the APG. It may even be on the SRD by now, the APG is being very slowly added.
One way could be just increase up to the wazoo your initiative score.
In this way, you could just go first and attack the flat-footed targets.
The Scout Rogue from APG could help you to deliver some SA in the subsequent rounds when you reach level 8.
Take a loot to the following Rogue Talents:
Core: Fast Stealth (to reach good position unnoticed) and Surprise Attack (a must IMO).
APG: Snap Shot, later Powerful Sneak (to make the single attack of the skirmish more prone do deal enough damage) and sniper's eyes.
Of course, take a look in the APG for the Sniper Rogue archetype too.
Another way could be use poison, but the effectiveness of this could depend from the campaing (enemies faced, cost and time to craft).
Is there an alchemist in your party? in this case, you could SA the flat footed and use poison on the other targets if viable.
I had thought of the poison route, sure. The character has previously been a ratcatcher, so poison would certainly be up his alley - is it handled by craft (alchemy) now, and does the skill still require spellcasting?
I certainly do intend to have some melee weapons as a backup option - and possibly the TWF/WFinesse feats to handle matters when he has to act up close. Still, what with the character's low strength and preference NOT to get hit by anything bigger than he is, I would try to focus on shooting. Is that feasible with the feats and options I have?
I had thought of the poison route, sure. The character has previously been a ratcatcher, so poison would certainly be up his alley - is it handled by craft (alchemy) now, and does the skill still require spellcasting?
I certainly do intend to have some melee weapons as a backup option - and possibly the TWF/WFinesse feats to handle matters when he has to act up close. Still, what with the character's low strength and preference NOT to get hit by anything bigger than he is, I would try to focus on shooting. Is that feasible with the feats and options I have?
AFAIK, no, in pathfinder is not longer needed to be a caster.
The idea of a melee/range shift is indeed intriguing. Take a look in the APG to disengaging rogue talents like positioning attacks and fast getaway.
This could be useful, exspecially if a bear druid, a grappling monk, an order of the shield cavalier or a fighter with stand still or improved trip are engaged with the enemy.
BTW, a fighter with greater feint could be a great buddy for you, I think.
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The feat Go Unnoticed [APG pg 161] can help, too. If the bag guys ignore you, you can slip off to a hidey spot, and start sniping (normally -20 to stealth, but take the halfling alternate racial ability Swift as Shadows and it drops to -10).
Now, I can't find anything in the RAW that says specifically you can sneak attack from stealth, but I've always assumed that you can. If so, you get your sneak attack bonus to each shot until they spot you. Even if not, though, you can still pop away with impunity until then, picking off the weaker, hurt or unarmoured targets for the team.
A urban Rogue with a crossbow is very stylish and thematically fitting.
And, alas, thats about it!
In Pathfinder/D&D x-bow is inferior to Bow in every conceivable way unless you are playing a character with less than 10 strength.
Historically this isn't wholly accurate, but it captures the spirit. English Longbowman where vastly superior to French Crossbowmen, BUT had to be trained for years to become effective and had to have a powerful physique while the French Crossbowmen was effective after a few days of training and just needed to strength to lift about 5 lb steadily...
If you are still hellbend on the idea of a x-bow Rogue, then bust up your Dex by heavily dropping your Str (20 Dex - 6 Str comes to mind giving you enough points for decent Con and Int).
You will need a Haversack soon to be able to carry anything except your weapon and normal gear if your GM enforces carrying capacity.
Then try to take feats that give as much punch as possible into that one shot per round you'll be loosing for quite some time.
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meh...everyone's poo-poo'ing the ranged rogue.
poor rogue, shoehorned into TWF Kukri all the time.
yes, you can make a ranged rogue work.
it will require more thought and effort than the standard variety, however, and tends to lose out on the pure "damage per round" race that's so prevalent.
Step One: The ranged feats.
WF: Crossbow, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim are required. Plain and simple, if you want to hit, you will need these tricks. Deadly Aim helps out with damage if you can't sneak attack.
Crossbow Sniper or Crossbow Mastery could be nice, but you won't be using these for quite a while.
With that load of feats needed, even by using Rogue Talents for them (not a great recommendation, but certainly possible), you won't be shooting more than once until after 11th level.
With Crossbow Sniper and a Keen crossbow, you can put out a LOT of bolts at the mid-high-level end of the game, and any crits auto sneak attack, from longer range. Nice, but situational.
For gear, you will need:
Items to increase Stealth
Ability to see through darkness, or the means to Sneak Attack with concealment.
Ability to Sneak Attack at longer than normal range. (Snipers Goggles from the APG are pretty much a necessity)
Finally, look at the Scout Archetype for Rogue in the APG. Move = Sneak Attack at fairly low level, and some other nice tricks.
As far as getting Flat-Footed opponents with your Crossbow Sniper...Going 1st in the turn is very nice...Imp Initiative or traits to bump your initiative will help out here, as will your ridiculous Dex.
Making enemies Climb, Balance, or otherwise have unsteady footing helps.
Blinding them or stunning them helps...party assistance from the Bard or Monk
Being Invisible (or Greater) will help a lot at the mid-level range.
Learn the Sniping and Stealth rules very well, and constantly be on the lookout for your angle to attack, evade, stealth, and reacquire.
No, you won't be standing toe-to-toe with the baddy and carving his liver out with knives, but you won't really be subject to his melee attacks, either.
Now, I can't find anything in the RAW that says specifically you can sneak attack from stealth, but I've always assumed that you can. If so, you get your sneak attack bonus to each shot until they spot you. Even if not, though, you can still pop away with impunity until then, picking off the weaker, hurt or unarmoured targets for the team.
The closest you're going to get is this:
1. Sniping allows you to fire a shot and remain "unobserved".2. You lose your DEX mod to AC vs. invisible (i.e. non-visible, i.e. unseen, i.e. "unobserved") enemies.
3. You can sneak attack if your opponent is denied his DEX mod to AC.
Step #2 is the problematic one. It's good enough for most players and DMs to say that if you're "unobserved" then it's the same thing as being invisible since, either way, the enemy cannot see you. But some DMs stick on this point and say they're not the same thing and you must be truly invisible to deny your enemy his DEX mod to AC.
Please note: at higher levels, when you have access to iterative attacks, rapid shot (with quick reload), or haste, or any combination of all of the above, you can only fire ONE shot while sniping from cover/concealment. Sure, that one shot will allow Sneak Attack damage, but meanwhile a TWF rogue in melee would be dishing out 3, 4, or 5 attacks that ALL do sneak attack damage.
While this is not directly to your point. Have you looked at the Urban Ranger from the APG? They are close to rogue in some of the skills they get. You could also go the Crossbow Style path.
This could work if you are really going for a rogue and not a thief. If you want to play a rogue thief... then I would suggest using a crossbow and pulling a knife when things get in close and dirty. :)
This could work if you are really going for a rogue and not a thief. If you want to play a rogue thief... then I would suggest using a crossbow and pulling a knife when things get in close and dirty. :)
That was basically my idea. Urban ranger could also work, and I like the idea of a halfling sewer ranger with a dire terrier. Still, I'm not sure if I can't pull out the idea better with a rogue - have you tried a small ranger, and does it have the hitting power to pull it off?
And yes, shooting with a crossbow and then pulling a knife or two when someone gets close is what I intend to be doing anyway. Hopefully I'll have the feats for it, though. Which ones do you all think are the most important? I suppose point-blank shot, precise shot and rapid shot are necessary for a ranged character, and rapid reload and, if possible, crossbow sniper seem important for a crossbowman.