Isn't Ill Omen overpowered?

[Violetgadfly]

So, this came up in one of our games recently. I'm playing a 13th level witch with ill omen, preferred spell (ill omen) and quicken spell. I had also planned on getting spell perfection (ill omen), but my DM said no and nerfed the spell. Here's why:

Anytime I was going to cast a spell on a single badass target, I'd cast a quicken ill omen and then hit him with the spell. The result was that I could very consistently use instant incapacitations like hold person, suffocation, dominate person, etc. on enemies that should be more resistant to these kinds of things because he doesn't even get a save against ill omen.

Especially with spells like suffocation and hold person that allow several rolls to stop the effects or progression of the spell, the extra unlucky rolls thrown on top of the first make it just that much more effective. E.g. When I used this combo with suffocation on a high level cleric, he made one roll and failed the other, so he had to take the failure and started to feel the effects. His next turn, before he could take an action, he got to make another save but ill omen was still in effect, so he failed and fell unconscious.

Now, some of you are probably thinking that this is exactly how the spell is supposed to work, but I think I agree with my DM that it's a bit monty.

Anyway, my DM decided that I cannot quicken the spell anymore, though I can still use it and use it as a first level spell so I can potentially still use it in combination with another spell I have quickened, and that keeps me from using it in combination with high level spells like suffocation (unless I cast it the next turn before he uses up the two extra unlucky rolls). I'm just wondering if that's the best way to nerf the spell. I had been thinking making it a 2nd or 3rd spell would do the trick, but even that won't help that much because once I got spell perfection I can quicken it for free (and double my bonus from spell penetration and greater spell penetration for monsters with SR).

So yeah, thoughts?

[Carbon D. Metric]

Your DM should start playing his NPCs smarter. They can dispel Ill Omen with a move action. Some monsters don't need air to breathe as well, I would make the case that a couple abberations and some outsiders are like this.

Second Suffocation doesn't take place until YOUR next turn, not his. Also keep in mind that making saves are non-actions unless otherwise noted. The effect is listed as lasting 3 rounds. You cast it, its first save occurs your next turn, not its turn. Otherwise this would likely be a 7-8th level spell.

[Ice Titan]

A 5th level spell slot in conjunction with a 6th level spell slot does sound like it should be able to take a guy out.

The problem is that you're using spells that are save-or-lose along with ill omen and since you do it in one round it's kind of lame. I'm a big fan of not dropping save or dies unless I have to, because it's no fun for anyone to have someone roll out a save-or-die on round 1 and have the monster fail their roll and die, or to have a PC just drop a 1 and die without any fanfare or urgency. A ton of time spent making the encounter, monster goes down in 1 second, nobody gets to have fun fighting the monster and the DM doesn't get to have fun running the monster. Even if it happened on round 2 or higher, the DM suddenly has his monster completely @~#~!ed down and it's just honestly annoying as all get out to have a bad guy who's really supposed to be throwing up a huge challenge roll twice, get one 1 and then lose the fight completely just because.

You know what I mean? With damage, if the monster is like some big angry fearsome guy you can have him last an extra round or two if he's already dead and you think that the game would be better off for it, but with save-or-dies, well, you can't say he gets hit by destruction and still can fight for two rounds...

The way you were doing it needed nerfing. Then again, spells like suffocation need nerfing too... hell, save or dies in general are just unfun spells, for everyone involved except for the person casting them. They should come with a disclaimer that says "May Make the Game Disappointing For Other Players"...

Quote:

E.g. When I used this combo with suffocation on a high level cleric, he made one roll and failed the other, so he had to take the failure and started to feel the effects. His next turn, before he could take an action, he got to make another save but ill omen was still in effect, so he failed and fell unconscious.

My heart goes out to the DM for making a high level cleric, an endeavor that likely took him upwards of an hour, who got save-or-died instantly and lost completely in the terms of the game.

[james maissen]

Violetgadfly wrote:

The result was that I could very consistently use instant incapacitations like hold person

So yeah, thoughts?

Umm there's a metamagic feat in the APG called 'persistent'. It's a 2 level bump that forces two saves rather than one. A lesser rod would be 9k or as a 4th level spell you'd have what is taking a 5th level spell, a 2nd level spell, and your swift action to do beyond the standard action.

So I think you're over-reacting. May I ask, did you play the PC up to 13th level or start there? Many times when you start at high level you expect and want low level play just with higher level PCs.

-James

[spalding]

Yeah Ill Omen in and of itself isn't broken.

It is a pain to deal with but then so is several other things. A few rerolls that the enemy can drop actions to negate isn't horrible, and spell resistance is still an issue.

Please note also that the spell is enchantment(compulsion)<mind affecting> which a huge number of enemies are either immune to outright, or have huge bonuses against.

Also spells like lesser globe of invulnerability or spell immunity also knock this tactic right out of the water.

So in summary:

Useful? Yes.

"overpowered?" No.