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Hello everyone,
I am a totally green noob with Pathfinder rules. I have been playing 2ed. for 15 years, and finally after being around others who have told me how good Pathfinder is and playing DDO, I have begun learning how to play Pathfinder.
However, I am very confused on Spell Resistance.
I cannot find anywhere a chart or set of numbers that lists the base Spell Resistance for player characters. I figured I would create a Cleric Human at first level to begin learning the game and its mechanics. However, I cannot find out any information about what his Spell Resistance should be...is it zero at 1st level? Is it only gotten by racial and/or class abilities?
Also a clarification on Skills.
Does every character know EVERY skill? For instance, the Cleric I created should have 5 skill ranks (I think). Does this mean I can only pick 5 skills right now, meaning that only the skills with skill ranks in them are the ones he possesses and can use? I do understand that his class skills garner a bonus of +3, so I figure on putting a skill rank into each of those just for the bonus. However, for skills like Sleight of Hand, can he still use this? The Cleric has a low DEX, with a -1. Does this mean he simply makes the DC check with a -1 whenever performing a check for Sleight of Hand?
Sorry for the dumbness...I have been playing 2ed for so long as DM I have the rules literally ingrained into my brain. It's difficult to put that aside and understand new rules, but I am trying!
Thanks for any help!
Player Characters don't have spellresistance, altough magic items can grant them.
Drow and other (typicly) non-playerraces can have spellresistance tough.
You can put a rank in every skill, and all the classkills give you +3 (I don't know how this works for multiclassing), and yes, -1 on dex just gives you a -1 penalty (or lowers the bonus by 1)
And "know every skill", well he can't use some skills untrained, so you need at least 1 rank in them to use them.
No problem, back in the 3.5 days, we went back to 2nd Edition and I had a hard time understanding everything there ;)
Have fun with pathfinder, I hope it is to your liking.
PCs do not usually get spell resistance unless they have some other source that says they do. Monks get it as part of their class at 13th level, and using some optional rules some races can get it, but no other class gets it by default. To beat an opponent's spell resistence, you roll your 1d20 + you caster level (levels in a casting class) + your casting stat modifier (wisdom for clerics).
As for skills:
You can roll any skill, even if you have no ranks, with the exception of a couple that say they may only be used trained like Use Magic Device. Some skills, like knowledge skills, have other restrictions on using them untrained. With knowledge skills, for instance, you cannot get any knowledge DC10 or higher without being trained. Most skills, especially physical ones, do not have any restrictions.
A class skill bonus is just the +3, like you thought. You can put skills into non-clss skills at no penalty.
Your example of slight of hand is correct. He can roll it at -1 if he has a dex penalty and no skill points in the skill.
Having rules questions is not problem. We like to help, and the giant tomb is a hard thing to search when you don't know what you are looking for. Welcome to Pathfinder.
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Spell Resistance:
Spell Resistance is only granted by certain racial or class abilities, or through magic items or spells. It functions sort of like Armor Class, and acts as a second barrier that the spell must overcome (in addition to Touch AC and/or Saving Throw).
Spell Resistance is almost unheard of on Player Characters, except for high-level monks. It is, however, extremely common, almost universal, on mid-to-high level monsters. This is one of the reasons that blaster-casters don't do very well (the other big one is Energy resistance, which functions like damage reduction for elemental damage. High saves and things like Evasion do not help, either, but are less of a concern).
Skills:
Your use of "know" is ambiguous and misleading, and is probably part of the reason you are confused.
Every Character is capable of attempting, and possibly succeeding at, every skill, unless the specific skill states otherwise (in other words, if the skill says you can use it untrained, you do not need to have any ranks in it).
This is not the same thing as "knowing" the skill. For instance, every person, even the Big Stupid Fighter, is theoretically capable of attempting to remain unseen and unheard (Stealth check). However, the odds of a Fighter being any good at the skill are fairly low, especially given that he is likely wearing heavy armor. But he can try, and possibly succeed.
Likewise, every character is capable of attempting, and possibly succeeding at, using any weapon they like - meaning that a straight classed wizard can, in fact, pick up a sword and have a moderately good shot at stabbing a bad guy in the kidney; I mention this because wizards couldn't do this in 2nd edition, something that always bugged me. Admittedly, they are still terrible at it, and doing so is a bad idea, but they can try.
Your Cleric:
Your cleric has two skill points (per cleric level), plus your intelligence modifier (per level), plus one (per level) if you are human. Persumably, if you have 5 skill points, you are First Level and either a human with a 14 intelligence or a non-human with a 16 intelligence - a respectable score in either case.
The power-builders on the forum would say that it's a little higher than normal - ignore them, at least for now. You are still learning, and a smart cleric is not a bad thing by any measure.
Diplomacy and Sense Motive are good choices, if you intend to talk. Heal is solid and lets you conserve some channel energy. Knowledges are always good, though the party only needs one person with any given one of these. Appraise is hit-and-miss; if there's a wizard or skill-focused rogue along, let him take it, otherwise it's not bad, given your int (intelligence). Spellcraft is always good; you'll want to keep this maxed as you go, even if it doesn't look all that useful. Some domains can grant additional skills.
Excellent explanations above.
However, for skills like Sleight of Hand, can he still use this? The Cleric has a low DEX, with a -1. Does this mean he simply makes the DC check with a -1 whenever performing a check for Sleight of Hand?
You've got it right here. In 2e you had to be trained in a skill/Non-weapon proficiency before you could try it, but you had an excellent chance of success if you were.
In 3.X/PF, most skills you can attempt, but without training you can be rather unlikely to succeed. There is though a huge variation in that based on the circumstances and the skill. For instance, jumping across a 10' pit isn't exactly easy, but most characters not in heavy armor can try an Acrobatics check with at least some chance to succeed. Being trained, particularly with a class skill, improves the odds immensely.
Sleight of Hand though has a minimum success DC of 20, so if you have a -1, you *can't* succeed at it (for the most common use of the skill that is).
if you meant by "spellresistance" the general, common way to resist a spell, it is saving throws that interest you. (as Major Tom said above)
So, every Spell in Pathfinder (and 3.5) has two entries, one "saving throw", and one "spell resistance". Last was already explained, but saving throws are basic, everybody has them, PC's monsters etc.
You only have 3, Fortitude , Reflex, Will. A Character is either good in them, then he has a base save of 2 + 1/2 lvl, or he is bad in them, then he has 1/3 lvl in them. A rogue for example is nimble, and has a good reflex, wizards have a better will, because they have a stronger, better built mind. Fighter have fortitude.
Some classes have 2 good ones, or even all 3 good (like monk).
So if a spell is cast on you, you have to make a the saving throw, that is written on the spell description, for example will disbelief --> 1d20+will against 10+spell lvl + int (for a wizard spell)
If you succeed you disbelief the spell, normally an illusion.
Other normal saving throw entries are for example "reflex half", for half the damage of a fireball, if you succeed on a reflex save.
There are spells that don't allow a saving throw, but they usually don't target monsters directly. Heal spells also allow saving throws, but you can lose on purpose, becaues you want the full heal on you.
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Awesome. I totally understand now. It seems Spell Resistance will have to come from magical items, then.
I was confusing this with the saving throws from 2ed., and forgetting I just read that Reflex, Fortitude, and Will rolls are the new "saving throws."
With skills, I assume the DC checks for certain actions are chosen precisely to give challenge to those who aren't highly skilled in something. I was wondering if (despite the Cleric's low DEX) I would still be able to use Sleight of Hand checks to do things even though I didn't put a rank in it or have very good scores.
How do DM's base DC checks for traps, maneuvers, etc? Do you guys usually base it off similar challenges in already published material? For instance, if I wanted my Cleric to jump over a table on his way out the door, how would I know the DC check without prior knowledge or a published item telling me the check? I think I saw DC check examples in the Pathfinder Tome...which is great!
We are going to playtest the new rules very soon. My other players are going to make characters this weekend and play a quick adventure to get the feel of it. From there we will decide if we want to completely convert. It seems like the rules are much more fine-tuned and make more sense. My 2ed rules has tons of house rules but it is very clunky and combat takes forever.
To beat an opponent's spell resistence, you roll your 1d20 + you caster level (levels in a casting class) + your casting stat modifier (wisdom for clerics).
I thought it was just 1d20 + caster level + any pertinent feats that grant bonuses (like Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration granting a +2 or +4 bonus, respectively). Am I missing something? Just curious.
You can normally find the DC's of things with the description of the PC's counterpart. Maneuvers have the Maneuver defense, 10+str+dex+Base attack bonus, if I remember right.
For skills, just check the skill description, jumb should tell you what the DC is for X height and Y length, with running start or without.
For the DC of traps, that's a lot more difficult, I would just look at the perception bonus a "normal" rogue would have, and then if the creator put a lot of love into the trap, his chance will be less than 50% to see it. Otherwise, if it was done in a hurry, without much tought, then a normal rogue is very likely to see it.
A normal rogue should have at least +his lvl on perception, at the very least, because he could skill focus +3, and gets half his lvl as bonus as class feature. But he has to check for the trap.
So as for an average DC, 10+bonus the rogue has give him a 50/50 chance. This way of thinking is the same as for AC for example one party throws a d20, the other has 10, and without bonuses it's 50/50.
There are probably example traps with challenge ratings somewhere, altough I can't remember where.
Awesome. I totally understand now. It seems Spell Resistance will have to come from magical items, then.
I was confusing this with the saving throws from 2ed., and forgetting I just read that Reflex, Fortitude, and Will rolls are the new "saving throws."
With skills, I assume the DC checks for certain actions are chosen precisely to give challenge to those who aren't highly skilled in something. I was wondering if (despite the Cleric's low DEX) I would still be able to use Sleight of Hand checks to do things even though I didn't put a rank in it or have very good scores.
How do DM's base DC checks for traps, maneuvers, etc? Do you guys usually base it off similar challenges in already published material? For instance, if I wanted my Cleric to jump over a table on his way out the door, how would I know the DC check without prior knowledge or a published item telling me the check? I think I saw DC check examples in the Pathfinder Tome...which is great!
We are going to playtest the new rules very soon. My other players are going to make characters this weekend and play a quick adventure to get the feel of it. From there we will decide if we want to completely convert. It seems like the rules are much more fine-tuned and make more sense. My 2ed rules has tons of house rules but it is very clunky and combat takes forever.
Most skills have examples in their descriptions, and you can extrapolate from there. Some are easy, some are not. For instance, Accrobatics has jump DCs for longjumps (1 ft/1 roll, running) and highjumps (1 ft/4 rolled, running). So a 3 ft tall table would be a DC12 check to jump on. If they want to jump over it, that would be the minimum, but since you also want to jump past it, I would probably increase the DC some. If they wanted to jump on, run accross it, and jump off, the DCs might be lower, but they may make more than 1. Different things require different actions, and you should keep the DCs sane.
Use your judgement when applying bonuses or penalties
+1-2 to the DC is for an inconvienience.
+3-4 is a significant disadvantage, but can be overcome by appropriately skilled characters
+5 or more is a major hinderence
You can apply similar bonuses as well, and they work great as rewards for creative ideas.
If you are not familiar with the take 10 and take 20 rules, I would recomend checking them out. Taking 10 assumes you are not in imminent danger from an outside source and thus can always perform average and roll a 10. You can usually use this unless you are in combat. Taking 20 means you try over and over again until you roll a 20. It takes 20 times as long, but you do as well as you are capable of.
Think of any skill in terms of a trained person having a +5 and often being able to take 10. Experts generall will have up to a +10-12. PCs can be better than experts.
DCs <10 are things that a normal person can achieve most of the time. Swiming in calm water, climbing a rope, foraging for food, and hearing someone casually walk by are all 10 or less.
DC 15 is difficult for a normal person but relatively easy for someone trained in it. Eavesdropping, not getting lost in the wilderness, swimming in rough water, and climbing a rock face with decent handholds are all DC15.
DC20 is a trick for someone trained, but they still have a decent chance to succeed. If people do the task in real life but need to be fairly good, DC20 is generally where you to set your sights. Experts will be able to hit this with decent success. High level adventurers stop having a problem, but they are superhuman in many ways.
DC25 are tasks that are chellenges for experts.
DC30+ is for those things that are truely superhuman.
Traps have their own rules outlined in the environment section. They have a DC to spot using Perception, usually 20 or 25, though sometimes higher or lower, and a seprate DC to disable, using Disable Device.
To beat an opponent's spell resistence, you roll your 1d20 + you caster level (levels in a casting class) + your casting stat modifier (wisdom for clerics).I thought it was just 1d20 + caster level + any pertinent feats that grant bonuses (like Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration granting a +2 or +4 bonus, respectively). Am I missing something? Just curious.
I may be wrong, but that is what I thought. I haven't dealt with it much.
To beat an opponent's spell resistence, you roll your 1d20 + you caster level (levels in a casting class) + your casting stat modifier (wisdom for clerics).I thought it was just 1d20 + caster level + any pertinent feats that grant bonuses (like Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration granting a +2 or +4 bonus, respectively). Am I missing something? Just curious.
No, you are completely right. Other few abilities (like the Elf's 'Elven Magic' Racial Ability, for example), feats (Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration are the only ones I can think of at the moment) or magic items (like the Robe of the Archmagi) give some additional bonuses to checks for bypassing SR, but the casting stat modifier is not part of the equation, only caster level.
No, you are completely right. Other few abilities (like the Elf's 'Elven Magic' Racial Ability, for example), feats (Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration are the only ones I can think of at the moment) or magic items (like the Robe of the Archmagi) give some additional bonuses to checks for bypassing SR, but the casting stat modifier is not part of the equation, only caster level.
Good deal. Thanks!I was afraid I might have missed an update somewhere or something. All of our casters get chastized if they don't have at least Spell Penetration by the time they are level 10, and many have Greater Spell Penetration by the time they are level 12. They come in handy for sure.
Awesome. I totally understand now. It seems Spell Resistance will have to come from magical items, then.
Know that most characters never end up with SR during their career. The saving throw system is the PC's defense against incoming spells and it works to a varying degree. (Casters will generally be good at Will saves, Fighter types good at Fort saves and Rogue types good at Reflex saves.) You should probably focus on increasing your saving throw numbers as opposed to trying to get SR. The system just isn't designed to require it. SR is mostly a monster option to allow designers to make monsters that are just almost immune to magic, similar to having truly high armor classes.
For PCs, SR can be fatal. If your fighter needs healing in combat, he needs to take a standard action to lower his SR for the cleric to be able to heal him!
With skills, I assume the DC checks for certain actions are chosen precisely to give challenge to those who aren't highly skilled in something. I was wondering if (despite the Cleric's low DEX) I would still be able to use Sleight of Hand checks to do things even though I didn't put a rank in it or have very good scores.
Yes, but you'll fail a lot of the time. Depending on what you're trying to do, your SoH check might be opposed by a Perception check. A perceptive character (someone who invested ranks in Perception for instance) will probably notice your attempt. On the other hand, you might roll high and he might roll low. Same goes for Bluffing and so on.
How do DM's base DC checks for traps, maneuvers, etc? Do you guys usually base it off similar challenges in already published material? For instance, if I wanted my Cleric to jump over a table on his way out the door, how would I know the DC check without prior knowledge or a published item telling me the check? I think I saw DC check examples in the Pathfinder Tome...which is great!
The Core book has DCs for jumping heights and distances. (In Acrobatics.) A table is likely about about 3ft high and maybe 5ft wide. A DM would just look at the table and establish a DC based on those two figures.
More... spur-of-the-moment type actions require a bit of DM experience. It's like this... a D20 roll will average 10.5 so that's the baseline number for something that should be 50/50 success/fail assuming NO other influences.
If you want a totally average person to have a 50% success rate, 10 is the target DC. (Remember that an ability score of 10 is considered average, and gives 0 modifier to related skill checks.) So a normal citizen is Dex 10, has no modifiers, and is likely to roll 10 on a d20.
So if the players decide to oh... rip a sconce from the wall to use it as an improvised weapon, the DM has to come up with how hard he figures that would be. Joe Average should have a bit of a struggle doing that, but a reasonably strong fellow shouldn't. Joe Average has Strength 10, while a beefy fellow might have 16 or even 18 at 1st level. That's a +3 or +4 modifier to anything Strength-related. So a DM might pick 13 or 14 as a good DC. Personally I'd go 15 because I'm lazy. That means a fighter type has slightly less than a 50% chance to pull the sconce out of the stone wall while Joe Average has slightly less than a 25% chance. A weakling wizard type might be down in the 15% realm if he's got a -2 modifier to Strength.
Incidentally, one last bit of detail. The example I just gave above... isn't an actual skill check. It's a direct ability check. Very similar to a skill check only for things that don't have directly applicable skills already. Swim doesn't make sense, Climb doesn't make sense, Acrobatics doesn't make sense... but it's clearly a Strength-related activity. So just pretend there's a Ripping-Sconces-From-Walls skill that keys off of Strength (like Climb does) only none of the PCs have invested ranks in it.
We are going to playtest the new rules very soon. My other players are going to make characters this weekend and play a quick adventure to get the feel of it. From there we will decide if we want to completely convert. It seems like the rules are much more fine-tuned and make more sense. My 2ed rules has tons of house rules but it is very clunky and combat takes forever.
3.5e and Pathfinder are a very, very rich system. There's a tonne of rule information that makes simulating pretty much any action cut and dried. That can be overwhelming, and that's one of the huge reasons D&D 4th edition went the simplified direction it did. That being said, once you wrap your head around the basics of how things work, that richness is REALLY, REALLY awesome and flexible. Good luck!