Hi, Im reading this AP, and really loving it. Planning to play it in a few months. I am stuck however on how to run the Kingdom building and would like to hear some advice/discussion.
Heres what Im thinking:
-handwaving the kingdom building, this has the advantage of being quick and simple, while Im sure my players will LOOOOOVE having a kingdom, I doubt they want to spend an hour every couple games spending build points. We don't really like rules, or rulebooks, we play a more story based D&D (thats why we ran away from 4th), and part of me thinks this type of resource tracking will just make the sessions worse.
-running the kingdom building as described, I would normally do this, except for whats mentioned above. I like the amount of options available to the players, things and buildings that we would never think of, and this method might drive home MORE that its a real kingdom, especially since I doubt I have the abilities to make it feel like a real kingdom just by storytelling.
-a third way. What is it? Any ideas? Im looking for the players to be as immersed as possible in having a kingdom, witout caring about the rules. I was thinking something like every month or so they give their general orders to the mayor, but how does the mayor keep track of what can be done? Maybe Im following the rules in the background.... I was also thinking it would be cool if we used some video game (a la simcity) and just allowed 10 minutes of play a month :) We play with a tabletop lcd projector so this could be doable, if there was a fantasy building game that sufficed.
Anyways, Im a rule breaker, we wing things all the time, but Im just looking for feedback/ideas with this. How did following the rules work in your campaign? What did you change?
Thanks for your feedback!
If you have players that prefer not dealing with the rules (and I have a few of those), you might consider a brief discussion each session with your players when their holding court as to how they want the kingdom to develop (in character, as they work their ideas out with various npc members of court), then deal with the kingdom building between sessions and give them the results of how it went the following session.
Given your group, I would suggest ignoring the building construction rules and all of the Loyalty/Economy/Stability checks. Still keep track of which hexes are claimed and which hexes have cities, but do something like "every year they grow one size category" or something simple and sweet like that. Let them name the cities, and then let them be.
But don't skimp on the kingdom events. Roll those suckers every month. Only don't resolve them with Loy/Econ/Stab checks. Have the PCs make proclamations and deal with it as a roleplay encounter. Find a skill that most closely matches the effect (plague breaks out? Have them roll Heal) and use an ad hoc DC.
But don't skimp on the kingdom events.
Totally agree. I loved reading the events in the second book and think my players will love these. The slain townsfolk, the rabble rouser, the cult, as well as the random events were all AMAZING ideas and will definetely help give the immersion I'm looking for.
Maybe every time they get back, a simple updated map of where the grainary, the armoury or whatever was built would be simple enough to get the feel for the actual building
I suggest you try with the rules when they actually start settling and building, and if your players enjoy doing it that way, continue with the rules. If they don't seem to enjoy it, but still enjoy the kingdom building aspect, do it as your post above :)
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I suggest you try with the rules when they actually start settling and building, and if your players enjoy doing it that way, continue with the rules. If they don't seem to enjoy it, but still enjoy the kingdom building aspect, do it as your post above :)
I agree with Are. The kingdom building rules are actually a fun meta-game. I had the same concern with taking time during sessions so I shared most of the rules with the PCs and we handle the kingdom building via google group emails (which is how I've handled purchasing, side quests for years).
However, the group really got into the kingdom building which was a surprise to me -- and it's added a sense of ownership that I would have never expected without taking away from tabletop time.
So you may want to give it a try - and role play the events if it doesn't work. What you may miss otherwise is the sweep of time -- this is a multiple year path and it building the kingdom has really helped.
It also is a wonderful rp device -- as it's amazing the reaction I get from threatening one of the towns they've built and letting them ride in to same the day.
As a result of the kingdom building rules and the rp that emerge and motivate the players, I think this game will continue well after we've complete the path. You may want to give it a try..
As GM, you could ask what the players want to do and then handle the mechanics after the fact.
Also, you can run kingdom building between sessions through email so it does not take up time at the table.
I have the same "problem" I lve the adventures but the kingdom building part is much to rules-heavy and restricted fo rmy group.
i think about a rules light version:
- no building restrictions (just build what you want where and when you want)
- just stability and unrest as checks
- less strikt leadership rules (something like: you need to provide administration, law enforcement, security and morale guidance - how will you do it?)
I have Kingmaker campaign starting next week. I think our group will enjoy the kingdom building rules, but we will have a lot of the administrative portion of the kingdom building happen in our forums we use between face to face sessions. That way our face time can be used to roleplay some of the fun of having a kingdom, but we can cover the "paperwork" portion on the forums where it will be a bit easier to track and such.
I plan on doing what was mentioned above. Use the rules, but all of that will happen between sessions on our forums (you could use Obsidian Portal.) That will keep people engaged between games, but keep the live-time focused on actual adventuring and role-playing.
My crew usually is all in favor of handwaving a rule here or there if things start to get bogged down and I had 3 of my 4 players slightly rolling their eyes at the kingdom building "mini-game." They felt that if they wanted to build a kingdom they'd ply Civilization or Sim-<fill-in-the-blank>.
However, in practice we have had one session where they got chance to take a cursory crack at it before they voted it down to "kingdom in the background." They spent 4 of our 9 game hours doing nothing but pouring over their maps and really falling into the fun of flexing their nerd-power on building a kingdom that would be immune from my usual GM tom-foolery.
I would suggest that your players give kingdom building an honest try. Worse case scenario they relegate the kingdom items to background and you guys finish this campaign at least one, if not two real world years before my group does (meanwhile adventures are piling up on the horizon...damn you Paizo!!!). Before you do make sure to stop by the Kingdom Building thread as it is full of some truly marvelous widgets and gizmos.
The rules aren't that hard to grasp even for rule haters. There is a lot to be said about planning the birth of a nation for story driven characters. My players have actually drafted up articles of confederation for their nation (we have an actual lawyer in the group). Determining logical road systems (I'm a civil engineer and one of my guys is an urban planner here in Portland so infrastructure is an important sidetrack), defense points, supply and trade routes are also huge time sinks (for my military pal). Our other player is a graphic designer and history nut that has thrown himself in to mapping, heraldry & flag designs and fortress layout/design. They have had a LOT of fun with this and they went into it with raised eyebrows and itchy trigger fingers.
The main point in its favor is that your players will get to apply their other interests and skills to the game without it being a sidetrack or leaving anyone out. Pick a hobby and there is probably some tie-in to building a fantasy nation. Have I said "give it a shot" enough in this post yet? Ha ha and I'll just slink back into my oubliette now.
CEO
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I am actually thinking about having the kingdom building run in a much more roleplaying way in my game. I plan to do this by NOT giving the rules to the players. Instead, they will be encourage to hire a kingdom planner who will give them advice based on what they are thinking.
"My lords, if you truly wish to build building X, you might wish to build building Y first, since it will make it a bit cheaper due to the cheap labor that building Y will provide."
In this case, there is less of a sense of gaming the rules, and more of a sense of building the kingdom through trial and error. If they hire the right consultants, there may be less error. But all in all, I think this will be a more fun way to handle this.
-Lisa
Hi, Im reading this AP, and really loving it. Planning to play it in a few months. I am stuck however on how to run the Kingdom building and would like to hear some advice/discussion.
Heres what Im thinking:
-handwaving the kingdom building, this has the advantage of being quick and simple, while Im sure my players will LOOOOOVE having a kingdom, I doubt they want to spend an hour every couple games spending build points. We don't really like rules, or rulebooks, we play a more story based D&D (thats why we ran away from 4th), and part of me thinks this type of resource tracking will just make the sessions worse.
-running the kingdom building as described, I would normally do this, except for whats mentioned above. I like the amount of options available to the players, things and buildings that we would never think of, and this method might drive home MORE that its a real kingdom, especially since I doubt I have the abilities to make it feel like a real kingdom just by storytelling.
-a third way. What is it? Any ideas? Im looking for the players to be as immersed as possible in having a kingdom, witout caring about the rules. I was thinking something like every month or so they give their general orders to the mayor, but how does the mayor keep track of what can be done? Maybe Im following the rules in the background.... I was also thinking it would be cool if we used some video game (a la simcity) and just allowed 10 minutes of play a month :) We play with a tabletop lcd projector so this could be doable, if there was a fantasy building game that sufficed.
Anyways, Im a rule breaker, we wing things all the time, but Im just looking for feedback/ideas with this. How did following the rules work in your campaign? What did you change?
Thanks for your feedback!
If the players don't want it then don't do it. I gave mine a copy of the rules for kingdom building. They decided to go for it. If they had decided to not go for it I would have had the kingdom grow in the background, and have a certain amount of months or years pass between books.
edit: I might have other rulers visit or have things happen that are specific to the PC's assigned roles for RP opportunities. Another idea is that if the PC adventure for a long period of time, one or several of the NPC's can try to form a coup. I think that would be interesting