Feats for Polearm Fighter

[Kingbreaker]

So the polearm template for fighters in the APG looks like a great deal of fun for a tactical-minded melee build.

What feat progression looks like it would capitalize most on the pole-armer's abilities?

- At first glance, the dodge/mobility/spring attack tree looks like it could be a lot of fun.

- A second thought would be the expertise/combat maneuver feats (particularly tripping) in order to maximize the battlefield control aspects of the build.

Thoughts? - this would be for a PFS character, so it's limited to a maximum of 14 feats.

[Themetricsystem]

Kingbreaker wrote:

So the polearm template for fighters in the APG looks like a great deal of fun for a tactical-minded melee build.

What feat progression looks like it would capitalize most on the pole-armer's abilities?

- At first glance, the dodge/mobility/spring attack tree looks like it could be a lot of fun.

- A second thought would be the expertise/combat maneuver feats (particularly tripping) in order to maximize the battlefield control aspects of the build.

Thoughts? - this would be for a PFS character, so it's limited to a maximum of 14 feats.

Ok, this may not be the most "optimized" but I really like the flavor of it.

Level 1-Step up, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Level 2-Power Attack
Level 3-Weapon Focus
Level 4-Weapon Spec
Level 5-Following Step
Level 6-Step Up and Strike
Level 7-Cleave
Level 8-Greater Cleave
Level 9-Greater Weapon Focus
Level 10-Shield of Swings
Level 11-Lunge
Level 12-Vital Strike

This combined with the class feature of Pole Fighting and Steadfast Pike allows for an effective reach of 15 feet during your turn, and allowing you to shorten your reach as needed so you can make any attacks of opportunity within that area, to follow enemies trying to disengage from your threatened area, to get a free hit on them, and if you feel like it you can use a combat maneuver instead and prevent them from moving any further.
Not to mention being able to get extra hard hits in when you need it and if you need to back off and defend yourself you can instead use shield of swings to fend off attackers.

There is nothing like being able to hit someone halfway across the room from you, and chasing him down if he want to run away as an immediate action.

[Ice Titan]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Kingbreaker wrote:

So the polearm template for fighters in the APG looks like a great deal of fun for a tactical-minded melee build.

What feat progression looks like it would capitalize most on the pole-armer's abilities?

- At first glance, the dodge/mobility/spring attack tree looks like it could be a lot of fun.

- A second thought would be the expertise/combat maneuver feats (particularly tripping) in order to maximize the battlefield control aspects of the build.

Thoughts? - this would be for a PFS character, so it's limited to a maximum of 14 feats.

Ok, this may not be the most "optimized" but I really like the flavor of it.

Take Step up, Following Step, Step Up and Strike, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still. Maybe even Lunge

This combined with the class feature of Pole Fighting and Steadfast Pike allows for an effective reach of 15 feet during your turn, and allowing you to shorten your reach as needed so you can make any attacks of opportunity within that area, to follow enemies trying to disengage from your threatened area, to get a free hit on them, and if you feel like it you can use a combat maneuver instead and prevent them from moving any further.

There is nothing like being able to hit someone halfway across the room from you, and chasing him down if he want to run away as an immediate action.

Metricsystem's got it right. Step Up, Following Step, Step Up and Strike, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Lunge and the fighter fill-ins (improved critical, power attack weapon focus, g weapon focus, weapon spec, g weapon spec, critical focus, etc. etc).

I would personally use a guisarme. Threaten everyone in ten feet. If anyone five foot steps, you move ten feet, trip them as part of SUaS and attack them for daring to be tripped (or not, if you feel kind). Anyone who provokes from you, trip and stab. Trip and stab. Lunge during your turn to trip and stab, trip and stab. Anyone five foots? Follow ten feet. Don't let anyone get away. Trip and stab. You're an angry, angry machine. Not only are you forcing some sort of sick demoralization campaign on the DM, since all of his monsters spend their miserable lives simply wallowing at your feet, but often people miss the forest for the trees and don't realize an enemy can just eschew standing up and attack from the ground. This provokes more attacks of opportunity for you. You will be ridiculous. You will run out of attacks of opportunity with combat reflexes.

Completely avoid Stand Still, though. It's rubbish. Stand Still only works on adjacent targets and is a pure CMB vs. CMD check-- NOT AN ATTACK-- whereas trip gains a +2/+2 from two feats and can benefit from attack bonuses such as haste, bardic music, flanking, high ground, etcetera.

Only problem with the trip is that huge or larger is too big for a trip, which is why enlarge person is good for you. Either that, or the fact that you're still an angry, angry fighting machine. Nothing stops you from still being able to dish out the damage of a regular two-handed fighter.

[Themetricsystem]

Ice Titan wrote:

Completely avoid Stand Still, though. It's rubbish. Stand Still only works on adjacent targets and is a pure CMB vs. CMD check-- NOT AN ATTACK-- whereas trip gains a +2/+2 from two feats and can benefit from attack bonuses such as haste, bardic music, flanking, high ground, etcetera.

Scratch that, misplaced my brain for a moment, I forgot what Adjacent meant. Derp.

[Ravingdork]

Ice Titan wrote:

Completely avoid Stand Still, though. It's rubbish. Stand Still only works on adjacent targets and is a pure CMB vs. CMD check-- NOT AN ATTACK-- whereas trip gains a +2/+2 from two feats and can benefit from attack bonuses such as haste, bardic music, flanking, high ground, etcetera.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't all CMB checks considered attacks as well? The way I understood it, anything that applies to attacks (such as bonuses from haste, bardic music, flanking, high ground, etc.) also applies to CMB checks (since they are attacks).

Combat Maneuver Rules:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

[Themetricsystem]

Ravingdork wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't all CMB checks considered attacks as well? The way I understood it, anything that applies to attacks (such as bonuses from haste, bardic music, flanking, high ground, etc.) also applies to CMB checks (since they are attacks).

** spoiler omitted **

They very much are, I had a note on that fact supporting a something that I later redacted due to a self defeating point but you are indeed right. Weapon Focus, Steadfast Pike, and other like bonuses would certainly apply to CMD.

Which really brings to mind some really nuts trip builds you could make.

[Ice Titan]

Ravingdork wrote:

Ice Titan wrote:

Completely avoid Stand Still, though. It's rubbish. Stand Still only works on adjacent targets and is a pure CMB vs. CMD check-- NOT AN ATTACK-- whereas trip gains a +2/+2 from two feats and can benefit from attack bonuses such as haste, bardic music, flanking, high ground, etcetera.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't all CMB checks considered attacks as well? The way I understood it, anything that applies to attacks (such as bonuses from haste, bardic music, flanking, high ground, etc.) also applies to CMB checks (since they are attacks).

** spoiler omitted **

Sorry, I got my wires crossed. The way I'm reading it is that you can make a combat maneuver check as an attack of opportunity... this isn't an attack roll or a combat maneuver, but a straight combat maneuver check. Like the difference between an ability check and a saving throw, for instance. I'm unsure if it's correct, but that's just how I read it.

Even as an attack roll instead of a straight check, Stand Still is still not an amazing feat for the polearm fighter, who has to live with, for a while at low levels, a -4 penalty to that check if he's shorthafting. And low levels would be the primary area of use for Stand Still, since later on, CMDs go so far beyond silly that the inability to finagle bonuses cripples your ability to be able to even perform the maneuvers on creatures.

[Kingbreaker]

Hrrrm.

I can see combat reflexes and lunge being very useful. . .

Reading the feats . . .

Quote:

Step Up (Combat)

You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a
5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step
as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to
the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you
cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take
an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet
from your total movement.

Quote:

Following Step (Combat)

You can repeatedly close the distance when foes try to
move away, without impeding your normal movement.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Step Up.
Benefit: When using the Step Up feat to follow an
adjacent foe, you may move up to 10 feet. You may still take a 5-foot step during your next turn, and any movement
you make using this feat does not subtract any distance
from your movement during your next turn.
Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an
opponent using Step Up.

Quote:

Step Up and Strike (Combat)

When a foe tries to move away, you can follow and make
an attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Following Step, Step Up, base
attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When using the Step Up or Following Step feats
to follow an adjacent foe, you may also make a single melee
attack against that foe at your highest base attack bonus.
This attack counts as one of your attacks of opportunity
for the round. Using this feat does not count toward the
number of actions you can usually take each round.
Normal: You can usually only take one standard action
and one 5-foot step each round.

I see an issue involving spacing:

- Reading the bolded sections, it seems that. . .
1) Step up only works when a foe starts adjacent.
2) This requirement persists when using following step or step up and strike.
3) Therefore, the eventual attack made under the last feat must occur when adjacent. With a reach weapon, this imposes a -3 penalty to hit (using the "pole fighting" ability).

- The problem with the "step up" feat chain is that all of them require you to close to *adjacent* to your opponent - which, as a user of reach weapons, isn't the optimal position. Three feats used in order to stay *too close* to the opponent doesn't seem efficient.

- The extra attack and extra movement flexibility are very nice. . . [edit] OTOH, if lunge is in effect, and the foe moves through a threatened square anyway, you still provoke an AOO, hence, step up and strike doesn't really give an extra attack.

- An alternative might be to invest in the dodge/mobility/spring attack feats. You lose the extra attack, but gain a more flexible ability for keeping the correct distance.

- an alternative might be to use a halberd - which doesn't have reach. Which is both a curse and a blessing. At that point, it probably makes just as much sense to just use a standard fighter build and a greatsword.