I asked something similar to this a couple of days ago and while the thread didn't get a ton of hits, the few that did post there seemed to agree that the best thing to do is hide.
And hide.
And when that fails- hide.
Basically- buff your Big E and hide like a scared rabbit.
Not entirely sure I'm happy with that myself- but it was the thread consensus. With that in mind you may want to take ranks in Stealth and get some feats that back it up.
(i think I will still go with a str/throwing based summoner.. but since I don't have to decide until I build one, I haven't yet. hehe)
-S
Well running and hiding isn't really my thing- even on my rogue.
(well, he Can hide.. but usually isn't too keen on running away.. chaaaarge!)
I was just saying, thats what most others seemed to think.
My problem with a bow is that you are low-damage. Unless yuo boost your str And buy the comp bows your damage will stay low.
I was thinking with thrown items you could make Str your main stat (instead of Dex) and that would allow you to throw for (still low damage) but also melee (for low damage) just not as low as a bow needing 2 stats.
Just thoughts still though.
-S
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I asked something similar to this a couple of days ago and while the thread didn't get a ton of hits, the few that did post there seemed to agree that the best thing to do is hide.
And hide.
And when that fails- hide.
Basically- buff your Big E and hide like a scared rabbit.
Not entirely sure I'm happy with that myself- but it was the thread consensus. With that in mind you may want to take ranks in Stealth and get some feats that back it up.
Well I've seen some horrible advice for building summoners also where someone suggested the player dump all their physical stats other than CON so their summoner was essentially a hit point pool for their eidolon.
I suggest before you adopt turtling as your primary strategy you give a more interactive role a chance.
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My problem with a bow is that you are low-damage. Unless yuo boost your str And buy the comp bows your damage will stay low.
I was thinking with thrown items you could make Str your main stat (instead of Dex) and that would allow you to throw for (still low damage) but also melee (for low damage) just not as low as a bow needing 2 stats.
Just thoughts still though.
Well hitting with low damage is better than missing with high :) You can also take feats that boost damage (deadly aim) and gear that boosts damage (flaming bow).
Start taking the Diehard feat chain.
Two of your most useful class abilities require it. This keeps your eidelon from going poof if you hit negative hp, and allows the eidelon to take hp damage that would kill you. Prettymuch must have feat chain now.
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Start taking the Diehard feat chain.
Two of your most useful class abilities require it. This keeps your eidelon from going poof if you hit negative hp, and allows the eidelon to take hp damage that would kill you. Prettymuch must have feat chain now.
Is this what you suggest for bards and wizards since their most useful class abilities require they be conscious also?
This is just plain horrible advice.
Start taking the Diehard feat chain.
Two of your most useful class abilities require it. This keeps your eidelon from going poof if you hit negative hp, and allows the eidelon to take hp damage that would kill you. Prettymuch must have feat chain now.
Is this what you suggest for bards and wizards since their most useful class abilities require they be conscious also?
This is just plain horrible advice.
Bards and Wizards don't lose their most powerful class feature for an entire combat for being rendered unconscious for 1 round. Nor do they have higher level class features that simply do not function as advertised because of a random, untested, unnecessary nerf. The only way to make Life Bond actually work as advertised is to be able to remain conscious all the way to your death from negative hit points.
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Bards and Wizards don't lose their most powerful class feature for an entire combat for being rendered unconscious for 1 round. Nor do they have higher level class features that simply do not function as advertised because of a random, untested, unnecessary nerf. The only way to make Life Bond actually work as advertised is to be able to remain conscious all the way to your death from negative hit points.
Irrelevant, this isn't debate about class features. We're talking about a recommendation for a feat and this is just bad advice.
You spend the entire game, session after session with 2, 3? mediocre feats just in case you run out of hit points? If you know you are going to spend much of your game sub-zero HP then jump on it. My money is that Point blank, rapid shot, and deadly aim are going to be much more helpful.
Anything you do for damage will be sub-par. That is assumed.
However, "sub par" is better than "zero" which is what you get if you do nothing at all.
-S
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Bards and Wizards don't lose their most powerful class feature for an entire combat for being rendered unconscious for 1 round. Nor do they have higher level class features that simply do not function as advertised because of a random, untested, unnecessary nerf. The only way to make Life Bond actually work as advertised is to be able to remain conscious all the way to your death from negative hit points.Irrelevant, this isn't debate about class features. We're talking about a recommendation for a feat and this is just bad advice.
You spend the entire game, session after session with 2, 3? mediocre feats just in case you run out of hit points? If you know you are going to spend much of your game sub-zero HP then jump on it. My money is that Point blank, rapid shot, and deadly aim are going to be much more helpful.
I disagree 100% with you here Ogre, I am sorry, maybe you play in a game where there is never any chance for bad things to happen to a character but I know for a fact I don't, and I am pretty sure most players don't.
What you call "mediocre feats" are game changers for this class, they can literally prevent the PC from dying due to the life-link feature which otherwise does little to nothing. That 2 feat chain has saved a good half dozen characters over the life of my play group so far and in this case it proves even MORE useful than in those cases.
There seems to be a trend hereabouts where people only ever seem to give a damn about how much damage a character can pump out in a single round of combat. That to me is just plain wrong, we are playing a Role Playing Game not a Roll Playing Game. This game isn't designed to be played 100% inside of combat and treating each class like a second class citizen based around the DPR they can do is shameful. So please take my kind advice and stop acting like you know what you are talking about, what you coin as "bad advice" is simply another persons take on it, you are by no means the expert and you really shouldn't act it.
rrelevant, this isn't debate about class features.
True enough. I suppose we were just a little off-topic.
Summoner's Call is a dreadfully useless feat. Any DM who doesn't make some modification to it if and when you take it should be taught a lesson by you saying that every 10 min you dismiss and resummon your Eidolon. Out of everything that was changed for the Summoner this one angers me the most and it wasn't even in the Final Playtest.
Otherwise, Diehard is a good choice especially with you being a Elf which elimiates all but one instance of your Eidolon going away when stuff happens to you.
Ranged Combat feats are also a good idea. Precise Shot is a good idea as you can shoot at whatever your Eidolon is fighting without taking a -4 to hit. Rapid Shot gives you an extra attack and so forth.
If you decide to go for Diehard chain, also consider becoming a wand specialist that way you don't have to worry about taking the ranged combat feats at all.
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I disagree 100% with you here Ogre, I am sorry, maybe you play in a game where there is never any chance for bad things to happen to a character but I know for a fact I don't, and I am pretty sure most players don't.
Again, I said if you are going to spend a lot of time at sub zero HP then it's worth it. Games and GM styles vary.
What you call "mediocre feats" are game changers for this class, they can literally prevent the PC from dying due to the life-link feature which otherwise does little to nothing. That 2 feat chain has saved a good half dozen characters over the life of my play group so far and in this case it proves even MORE useful than in those cases.
What those feats prevent is a summoner from having to cast a second level spell after you wake up....
That's it.
Class feature invariably affect feat choices. As does spell selection. For example, the summoner has many buffs that work just as well on the summoner as the summons. The Improved Share Spell feat would help this.
Haste, deadly aim and archery is a sound strategy.
Using feats to be good at archery may be too much of an investment. Get Deadly Aim and use spells and diverted evolutions to augment the combat ability of the summoner.
Feats: Spell Focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning, Deadly Aim, Toughness, Iron Will, Improved Share Spell
I suppose you could afford to skip Toughness and Iron Will for Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot...
Spells: Haste, Heroism, Cat's Grace
Summoner's Call is a dreadfully useless feat. Any DM who doesn't make some modification to it if and when you take it should be taught a lesson by you saying that every 10 min you dismiss and resummon your Eidolon. Out of everything that was changed for the Summoner this one angers me the most and it wasn't even in the Final Playtest.
Otherwise, Diehard is a good choice especially with you being a Elf which elimiates all but one instance of your Eidolon going away when stuff happens to you.
Ranged Combat feats are also a good idea. Precise Shot is a good idea as you can shoot at whatever your Eidolon is fighting without taking a -4 to hit. Rapid Shot gives you an extra attack and so forth.
If you decide to go for Diehard chain, also consider becoming a wand specialist that way you don't have to worry about taking the ranged combat feats at all.
Good advice, especially if you go the diehard feat route. Stacking point blank shot and keeping two or three wands on you (one in each hand so you have some choices) can make a very combat effective mage, especially since you can wear armor and still cast spells.
Another feat you might want to consider is medium armor proficiency. Not because you'll ever wear medium armor, but because you can then get mithral medium armor and still cast spells, since it's treated as light (but you still need the proficiency to avoid the double ACP).
On the other hand, if you get mithral breastplate, and stack it with the armor training trait, you can wear a mithral breastplate without having the proficiency for it (it has 0 ACP in that case). And since it's still considered light, you can cast spells in it as a summoner.
Ah,
Ok, I didn't realize organized play capped at level 12 (wow, that sucks). Anyway, yeah, if that's the case, ignore the diehard feat chain, makes no sense to take it if you can't ever get the benefit of it.
As to casting with a wand in your hand, it depends on your GM. I usually let my casters tie a string to the wand if they want, so they can release it and not drop the thing (it's easy to sunder though, any sunder attempt that hits automatically cuts the string).
The armor training trait is in the APG as a combat trait, and yes, there's a feat in the APG that lets you get two traits. My understanding is though that you start with two traits, unless organized play is different. I have a spell-less ranger right now (from Kobold Quarterly) that only has light armor proficiency but is wearing a mithral breastplate using the trait to avoid the penalties.
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Spending 3-5 feats on such a thing seems somewhat silly. I'd rather spend the feats on extra spells for another 2 spells known of 2nd+ level (taken at level 7+).
Not a bad idea, I'm not sure about taking extra spells twice, they don't have a lot of spell slots to toss around.
As to archery.. consider that by 6th level you're looking at either:
1. Archery (outside 30' cause you don't wanna be that close):
To hit: +8 (+4 BAB, +3 DEX, +1 Bow) or through (soft) cover +4
Damage: 1d8+1 (0 STR, +1 magic) for 5.5 average (YMMV if you have higher str).Say vs AC 21 (or a mere 17 through allies/enemies which is far more common than you'd think) you're looking at a 40% chance to hit to average 2.2 damage (baring an unlikely crit).
Paizo stuff (including PFS) tends to include a fair number of low AC enemies. For example I'm poking through a PFS scenario and the in the Tier 6-7 encounters 2 of the 4 encounters have AC 17 targets and one has an AC 19 target. For the other, there is glitterdust.
Use archery against the AC targets you can hit and save your spells for the critical encounters. Or mix things up, use things like glitterdust to soften targets so you can hit them. The thing is you likely aren't going to have enough spells to fill every round of every encounter for quite a while.
cfalcon's idea to use vital strike with readied actions is a great way to get some mileage out of a fairly low damaging attack.
2. UMDing a little 1st level wand of magic missiles.
Chance to activate: 65% DC 20 (+12 w/6 ranks +3 Trained +3 CHA)
Damage: 1d4+1 for 3.5 average.
Yielding expected damage: 2.275
UMD is a decent way to go but I'm not a big fan of consumable items. A 750gp wand is 15 gold per shot, the 3rd level wand is 45gp/ shot.
The bow is still worth 2,300 gold after 50 shots, or 200 shots.
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UMD is a decent way to go but I'm not a big fan of consumable items. A 750gp wand is 15 gold per shot, the 3rd level wand is 45gp/ shot.The bow is still worth 2,300 gold after 50 shots, or 200 shots.
The format for society play is roughly 3 adventures to level a character (an adventure being a 4 hour session). At the end of each adventure/session the PC could have been awarded 1-2 PA (Prestige award points) and can spend 2PA to get an item up to 750gp in worth. Thus a level 1 wand of magic missile is by no means out of line. In fact level 1 wands are the prime choice here imho.
The way I see it it's unlikely that he'll burn through more than 2 wands over the course of 33 mods (taking him from 1st to 12th).
Also I see feats as being far more expensive than these consumables.
Spending gold, spending PA, amounts to the same thing.
I do agree that if you are only using two wands over 12 levels then the wands are likely the better choice. Even if you do only buy 2 wands your damage is capped which is a bit limiting. Vital strike and Deadly aim both help boost archers damage over time.
As for spending feats, that's a fair enough point. Ultimately it boils down to what kind of role you want to play in the party.
If I go the ranged path, my first feat is Point Blank Shot at 3rd level, which will actually be helpful sometimes. Then at 5th the choice would be between Rapid Shot (for an extra attack that would double my meager output, but the -2 would be very noticeable) and Precise Shot (which would let me engage pretty much any target at the table).
These feats are at least all useful the moment I pick them up, but I could be left with regrets at like 9th level maybe? I suspect that archery will still be helpful even at level 12.
Is Vital Strike just another damage die? It sounds like it could maybe be used to interrupt even a mid level caster with a readied action? One of the mechanically pleasing things about being a split entity is having an action to spare, after all.
Precise Shot is the better choice because while taking another shot will be nice being able to shoot into melee without penalty will be better. Vital Strike is giving up all of your extra attacks for an extra damage die. If you don't have too many attacks its probably a good choice.
This sounds interesting- what do you mean, just have a selection of wands? I'm a little unsure about which wands are available when in society play- I think I need to unlock them with a chronicle sheet. What would be good options here?
Yes, just have a selection of wands. Wands can cover just about anything you'll need to do combat wise. However, I'm not sure what the rules are in society play.
Hrm, looking through the Pathfinder lists of items, I see that Elven Chain remains usable as light armor, despite being chainmail (+6 armor bonus). It costs 5150 GP, which is 1000 GP more than mithral chainmail (which would require medium armor proficiency)- here's my question- can Elven Chain be enchanted? Like would 6150 GP buy Elven Chain +1?
It's masterwork (Mithral) armor with no existing enchantments, so yes, it can be enchanted. So 6150 would buy you +1 elven chain.