By their logic, an Intensified Chain Lightning is impossible, because it would also arc to more targets once it exceeded base Hit Dice. Getting extra targets is part of the spell, it's not a supplement.False on both counts. Care to try again?Your absolute statements keep getting you into trouble.
An Intensified Chain Lightning gets to hit a number of targets equal to Caster level (maximum 20), doing dmg equal to caster level in d6's, max 25d6.
An INtensified Magic Missile gets to hit a number of targets equal to CL/2, doing 2-5 spread out as you like, max of 5 at cl 10. Thematically, there is NO DIFFERENCE.
What you argued was that Magic Missile couldn't be restricted to 5 targets max. Okay...by that logic, Chain lightning couldn't be restricted to 20 targets. Since Magic Missile can't be limited to 5, Chain Lightning can't be limited to 20, which makes Intensified Chain Lightning as Impossible as Intensifed Magic Missile...by your logic.
It's the same bloody thing, and it doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, after seeing what you have put together here I have to acknowledge that you are inventive and seem intelligent.
Therefore I do not understand how you could not see that your argument comparing magic missile and chain lightening is fallacious.
Here are the spells from the pathfinder core book:
Magic Missile
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than
15 ft. apart
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and
strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee
combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment.
Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Objects are not
damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional
missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum
of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate
As the bolded part states magic missile does not scale in damage just in the number of missiles gained.
School evocation [electricity]; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a bit of fur; a piece of amber, glass, or a
crystal rod; plus one silver pin per caster level)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets one primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each
of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single
stroke commencing from your fingertips. Unlike lightning bolt,
chain lightning strikes one object or creature initially, then arcs to
other targets.
The bolt deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level
(maximum 20d6) to the primary target. After it strikes, lightning
can arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level(maximum 20). The secondary bolts each strike one target and deal
as much damage as the primary bolt.
Each target can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage.
The Reflex DC to halve the damage of the secondary bolts is 2 lower
than the DC to halve the damage of the primary bolt. You choose
secondary targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of
the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. You
targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
As you can see chain lightening scales in two ways. Both by damage per level and by number of targets. The only factor modified by intensify spell is damage not targets.
Intensified Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells can go beyond several normal limitations.
Benefit: An intensified spell increases the maximum
number of damage dice by 5 levels. You must actually
have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in
order to benefit from this feat. No other variables of the
spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is
not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat.
An intensified spell uses up a spell slot one level higher
than the spell’s actual level.
This feat is quite clear. It only modifies damage that scales with level not number of targets, number of missiles or any other effect. This means that only spells that do XXdX/Caster level are affected, and the verbiage is quite clearly given in fireball, lightening bolt, chain lightening, disintegrate, or other spells of this type.
Second, if you and your group enjoy this feel free to play this way and enjoy! I use quite a few house rules myself. You do seem to have an extremely permissive group if anything like this is allowed. That is fine, as long as you are all having fun.
TL;DR: While I disagree with you and would not allow this in my game, please if all of your group is having fun enjoy, just realize it is not RAW.
One thing that may complicate things is that the Chain Lightning example that's being quoted is at Caster Level 20. It's not clear that the feat was intended to break the limits of non-epic magic as opposed to medium and low level magicks like fireball and cone of cold which have a caster limit of 10 and 15 respectively.
Is the feat intended to give effective caster levels of beyond 20? While saying no might argue that this makes this feat useless at level 20+ it still carries a major weight at the climax part of most campaigns and PFS which is about 12.
Intensify Spell only increases the cap. It does not actually increase your caster level. An intensified chain lightning has a maximum caster level cap for the purposes of damage of 25; you still have to have a caster level of 21+ to get any benefit from applying Intensify Spell to chain lightning.
And, anyway, there are examples in the Core Rulebook of spells with a caster level cap greater than 20. Mass cure light wounds, for example, caps out at 1d8+25.
Your absolute statements keep getting you into trouble.
An Intensified Chain Lightning gets to hit a number of targets equal to Caster level (maximum 20), doing dmg equal to caster level in d6's, max 25d6.
An INtensified Magic Missile gets to hit a number of targets equal to CL/2, doing 2-5 spread out as you like, max of 5 at cl 10. Thematically, there is NO DIFFERENCE.
What you argued was that Magic Missile couldn't be restricted to 5 targets max. Okay...by that logic, Chain lightning couldn't be restricted to 20 targets. Since Magic Missile can't be limited to 5, Chain Lightning can't be limited to 20, which makes Intensified Chain Lightning as Impossible as Intensifed Magic Missile...by your logic.
It's the same bloody thing, and it doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
Chain lightning specifically says that it strikes a number of targets equal to your caster level +1 (one primary and your caster level in secondary targets). Each bolt deals 1d6/level damage. Intensify would increase that damage as per the feat description.
Magic missile, on the other hand, specifically states that it creates a number of missiles (1 per 2 caster levels after 1st, to a maximum of 5 missiles) each dealing 1d4+1 damage. There is no caster level in damage that is dealt per missile. In fact, comparing the two spells only makes it clearer to me that Intensify would not affect Magic Missile but would affect Chain Lightning.
I see your argument. I just don't agree with your interpretation.
Those are specifics. It's not known that those are supposed to represent a general relaxation of the 20 cap.
And, anyway, there are examples in the Core Rulebook of spells with a caster level cap greater than 20. Mass cure light wounds, for example, caps out at 1d8+25.
My point is that there is no "20 cap" as a general rule. There are ways to increase your caster level above your actual character level, for example the Gifted Adept trait. Epic magic is not the same thing as having a caster level higher than 20.
See, you're making artificial distinctions here.
A magic missile does 2-5 /2 caster levels, max 5 d4+5. It manifests this as magic missiles.
Your interpretation that just because it doesn't say "This spell does 2-5 pts/ 2 caster levels. Each d4+1 dmg manifests as a missile of magical force," yada yada yada, that it doesn't work. That's insane. it's directly akin to saying, "This spell creates a Burst of Magical Fire. This Burst does x dmg/level"...because it mentions the burst before the dmg, Intensify can't affect it.
Balderdash. You don't confuse the delivery vehicle with the spell effects.
You're pulling English and Semantics into the spell description, when it is plain and obvious that what it does is 2-5 pts/2 caster levels. By phrasing the dmg as belonging to the 'missile', that merely clears up the notion some would immediately have of swapping dmg around as they like between different shots. Note that if you hit one person with the spell, it's not 'five different shots'...it's ONE SPELL. Doing level based dmg.
THEN, you're pulling in artificial conditions. you're saying 'making magic missiles' is an 'extra' because it creates the ability to make more targets. I don't agree with this...it's no more an extra then the cone shape of a spell is, which gets bigger as you get higher caster level, and can hit more people, or the longer duration of a wall of fire spell.
I pointed out that if such was the case, you could simply restrict the total number of targets to 5. This was immediately decried as impossible.
It's no more impossible then restricting the Chain Lightning extras to 20...exactly as it says in the spell description.
So, I most emphatically DO NOT AGREE that Intensify doesn't work with magic missile. The missile to dmg phrasing, instead of dmg to missile phrasing, is there for clarity, NOT prevention, and certainly doesn't hide the bare truth of the level based dmg of the spell. Trying to argue that Magic Missile does not deal dmg directly related to caster level is just making me shake my head.
===
As for exceeding caster level 20, you certainly can do so with bonuses, traits, feats, and magic items. Is it common? no. but it's a useful late game trick. Arcane Thesis + Orange Ioun stone + trait + Bloodline of Fire could be +6 Caster level on Fire Spells, or something.
==Aelryinth
A magic missile does 2-5 /2 caster levels, max 5 d4+5. It manifests this as magic missiles.
That is incorrect. Magic missle generates one missile per two caster levels, to a maximum of five missiles. The missiles deal 1d4+1 damage. You cannot increase the damage without increasing the number of missiles, and the Intensified Spell feat :
No other variables of the spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat.
Magic missile's damage is not modified by caster level (its number of missiles are), and in order to make magic missile deal more damage, you'd have to increase the number of missiles (which are a separate variable of the spell from the damage dealt). Intensified magic missile is thus invalid for two different reasons.
Your interpretation that just because it doesn't say "This spell does 2-5 pts/ 2 caster levels. Each d4+1 dmg manifests as a missile of magical force," yada yada yada, that it doesn't work.
Incorrect. This re-wording wouldn't work, either, because the damage is still linked directly and irrevocably to another variable. In other words, with the wording above, you could not generate more damage without also generating more missiles, which is forbidden by the feat.
it's directly akin to saying, "This spell creates a Burst of Magical Fire. This Burst does x dmg/level"...because it mentions the burst before the dmg, Intensify can't affect it.
Also incorrect. This example would work, because the damage is independent of other variables. In other words, you can increase the damage without increasing any other aspect of the spell.
Note that if you hit one person with the spell, it's not 'five different shots'...it's ONE SPELL. Doing level based dmg.
Tell that to scorching ray. It's very well publicized that energy resistance applies to each individual ray (so well publicized and such a problem that Paizo actually made a specific exception to this rule for meteor swarm, changing it from the uselessness that was the 3.5 version). Similarly, for those very rare creatures that have force resistance, that resistance applies separately to each missile.
THEN, you're pulling in artificial conditions. you're saying 'making magic missiles' is an 'extra' because it creates the ability to make more targets. I don't agree with this...it's no more an extra then the cone shape of a spell is, which gets bigger as you get higher caster level, and can hit more people, or the longer duration of a wall of fire spell.
Incorrect. The length of the cone and the duration of the wall of fire are not inextricably linked to the damage of the spell.
I pointed out that if such was the case, you could simply restrict the total number of targets to 5. This was immediately decried as impossible.
False and quite misleading. I didn't say it was impossible (nor did anyone else; the first person to use that word in this thread was , and every use of it past that point was either a response to that use or you using it again in a new situation), I said it would be house ruling the feat to support a house rule that allowed the feat to work in the first place.
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Elemental Orbs (4th): This set of spells is popular because of their no-SR rule, and because most DM’s allow you to pick the element on the fly, instead of being forced to memorize each Orb individually.
Really, you believe most DMs will just allow you to memorize Orb spells on the fly, so you can pick whichever one would be most effective in a given situation? Wow, I had no idea that most DMs were such saps...
Do you think they'd allow me to change out my Fireball for a Lightning Bolt, because I just noticed a crap load of guys all lined up over there...
Mine all have let me choose the element on the fly, as long as the original spell is in the books. Fireballs and lightning bolts are two dif attack forms. Gotta memorize those separately.
Secondary effects of the orbs are changed via orb, not element. It's quite similar to elemental sub, is all.
If your DM doesn't allow it, then shrug and use force. I really don't see Orb spells taking five different spells to learn.
=====
You're calling Magic Missiles 'another variable'. I do NOT agree. IF the spell was phrased as doing 2-5/level, with dmg spread among 1 missile/level, then people would roll dmg, then allocate the dmg as they liked.
It is phrased as it is to CLARIFY things, not disqualify. You're bringing in something extraneous. Input is caster level, output is dmg. 2-5/level, max 5d4+5. Missile numbers are irrelevant...it's not an argument. It's simply a clarified delivery vehicle for the dmg listed. The number of missiles is simply level-based dmg infliction, as the increased duration of a wall of fire is, or the greater area of a Cone of Cold.
And it's still all one spell, per Spell Resistance. Claiming Damage Reduction is now a disqualifier is really making me wonder why you are going so far out on a string to decry this. Scorching Ray is DQ'd because it's not a hd/level mechanic...that's IT. It's 4 hd/4 levels, not hd/2 levels like MM.
Multiple missiles are not 'variables', they are the delivery vehicle. That's it. And your arguments aren't going to change things for me. If they specifically errata it, I'll bow to their intent...and house rule Magic missile in anyways. i see no reason that Energy Grasp adn Burning Hands can qualify for this, and Magic Missile cannot.
==Aelryinth
Sorry to resurrect on old thread; who knows if anyone will ever even read this. But Aelrynth; are you insane? There is no such game concept as "delivery vehicle." Does it even bother you that most people who read this disagreed with you? Seriously; there's no way your interpretation flies RAW. Your build is houseruled within an inch of it's life (including which books are allowed), so it's not very valid as a build to suggest to others.
