It is a testament to the Paizo boards that I felt I could come here to get this off my chest. In three words ...
Perhaps later, when I can think clearly, and the artiste-rage (that petulant cousin of nerd-rage) has died down, I can clearly articulate why. It's not that I see my Moldvay/Cook/Marsh B/X or my Lost City dungeon module as totally unassailable. It's not that I don't think there's a good chance the stuff the guy's talking about is any good. It's closer to simple, headbanging frustration at poorly-considered comparisons and a lack of respect where it's due.
Does it bother anyone else?
Thanks Paizo boards and community, for being here for me to vent this.
(I don't know if this belongs in the OGL forums or here in OT, so if the threadmasters think it needs moving, by all means do so. Also, my computer may have posted this twice - but I think I deleted the other.)
MUHAHAHA!
Does not bother me. The OSR until recently was but a blip upon my radar.
The 2nd Ed Clones look more interesting to me since I can take all of those AL-Quidim books and use them with no modifications.
It's not that they're making the clones that bothers me. Not my thing, but more power to them. B/X is fine as-is*, but I begrudge nobody his or her fun. I just think they could promote it without being jerks about it. Without "going there," it kind of reminds me of the early 4e marketing which just seemed really /snarky/ about 3e**. It's one thing to promote yourself, it's another to do it by sliding a shiv into the guy you've been standing behind through most of the dungeon (if you take my meaning).
* Well, one second-level MU spell short maybe, but still good. ;-)
**Compare to Paizo, who seem to make it a point not to really "go after" anybody.
Seriously, that caused a whole blow-up in the OSR community (for lack of a better umbrella term, what with folks coming out afterwards saying that they weren't OSR) that went on and on. I think it was a case of hurt pride and thin skins on both sides. We need both innovators and improvers. I think nostalgia and hero worship are sometimes weighed uncritically, and that the prideful can be arrogant towards their progenitors. I'm glad I don't have to choose between having my old stuff (as I re-acquire it) and the new stuff that is being put out, whether by DIY old schoolers or Paizotic professionals and their newfangled Pathfinder. Now where's my Bengay?
I just think they could promote it without being jerks about it.
The world would be a better place. If I was better than Gygax, I'd want someone else to say it, and I'd keep my opinion, even if it was reasoned and supported, to myself.
Hmmm ... didn't know that was a phenom, Mair. Just found it while googling around the "blogosphere." That'll teach me to wander into the middle of the movie... ;-)
And your second post is why you're a prince among men. Not everyone is.
Hmmm ... didn't know that was a phenom, Mair. Just found it while googling around the "blogosphere." That'll teach me to wander into the middle of the movie... ;-)
And your second post is why you're a prince among men. Not everyone is.
Very generous of you to say so.
I'm an irregular reader of the OSR blogs. I usually go diving for stuff that will help me at the time, and read a few more regularly. Others I'll skip for long periods of time, so I also wandered in half-way into the show. Curiosity made me dig back through the controversy, and it was a gruesome feast for the curiosity. There was every kind of hot mess on both sides, IMO. I've got to say, I'd still really like to see a copy of Lamentation of the Flame Princess. At this point in my economic life, I can't see myself dropping the bucks for it, sight unseen. What with all the free stuff out there. Still, he gave away a draft version, and I'll read it over time.
EDIT: And to be completely fair to the guy, he wasn't simply saying, My stuff is better (so buy it), but Our stuff is better. Maybe a little injection of self-regard within a community that tends to be so oriented towards the originators isn't such a bad thing.
What is OSR?
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"Old School 'Revolution'". Grognard-y movement getting back to the roots of the game and reexamining how they used to do it back in the day. Some companies (small, cottage boutique publishers, for the most part) are using the OGL to print (or pdf as the case may be) rewrites of OD&D, original B/E, AD&D and 2e. I think there's one emulating Traveler out now but I'm not sure.
The OSR people are even split between themselves as to what "ruined" the game. Some think AD&D went to far, or AD&D went south when Hickman started writing modules, or when FR was released (or, shortly after Gygax was run out of TSR) or when 2E was published. Almost all have little love for 3e or especially 4e.
Grognardia is a mild version of the typical thought patterns of the old school types, but there are links on that blog to other, more militant, blogs and websites. It's interesting reading, if only to get a perspective on the game from people who have seen most or all of the changes over the years.
With 31 years of gaming under my belt, I dig the nostalgia kick to some of the stuff, and maybe even agree with some of the premises and conclusions, but I think some of the OSR types are a bit too "gamer Luddite" at times.
I am not sure what "OSR" is supposed to be - but comparing material produced within what seems to be the past couple of years to stuff produced more than two decades ago - seriously ?
O.o
Riiight ... orange, meet bannana.
I think the biggest problem with the whole OSR thing is the mindset behind their tendency to describe themselves as a "movement" and other such nonsense. Everything I read from these guys reeks of elitism, and they seem to be trying to cordon themselves off from the masses with a desperation that I haven't seen since I last walked a college campus and took note of the children who were trying so very hard to stand out as "cooler-than-thou".
And then of course, they have the gall to get all up in arms because the world has yet to embrace them openly and give recognition to their genius...when that is exactly what they don't want.
Some also use it to stand for Old School Renaissance.
Grognardia is one of my favorite blogs.
You know what? I'd really like to get the boxed set of Lamentations of the Flame Princess, but $77?! Yikes. That's beyond Orcus money.
For Raggi's perspective, which will give some context for his now infamous comments, try this podcast.
Riiight ... orange, meet bannana.
Oh, Orange, thank God you are here! You can't believe how sick I'm getting of "banana who?"
I didn't see that blog's claims as hubris. The article simply recognizes that gamers today have more resources and information from which to develop their games. To borrow a quote, "We stand on the shoulders of giants".
Even the best-designed game will have some weak points, often caused when players' behavior changes in reaction to the game setting. As an example, if every encounter is carefully tailored to the party's power level, players may grow arrogant, depending on combat as the best way to tackle every encounter.
Those celebrating the "Old-School Renaissance" enjoy a sense of nostalgia for the games of role-playing's early days, but can inform their design ethos by comparing the older games to more recent efforts. Learning from all that has gone before, they develop campaigns that integrate the advantages of both old and new games.
Riiight ... orange, meet bannana.Oh, Orange, thank God you are here! You can't believe how sick I'm getting of "banana who?"
^_^
" Banana Republic! " as the only answer must also get old...
Those celebrating the "Old-School Renaissance" enjoy a sense of nostalgia for the games of role-playing's early days, but can inform their design ethos by comparing the older games to more recent efforts. Learning from all that has gone before, they develop campaigns that integrate the advantages of both old and new games.
But Raggi's not really about celebrating nostalgia, and he doesn't want the OSR to get stuck in it. He thinks it's a great game now, and can be (moreover, has been) made better and reach out to new players, not just to old nostalgic guys who want their precious old booklets or books that look just like them. Now, if you'll excuse me, mine are in the other room...
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Those celebrating the "Old-School Renaissance" enjoy a sense of nostalgia for the games of role-playing's early days, but can inform their design ethos by comparing the older games to more recent efforts. Learning from all that has gone before, they develop campaigns that integrate the advantages of both old and new games.But Raggi's not really about celebrating nostalgia, and he doesn't want the OSR to get stuck in it. He thinks it's a great game now, and can be (moreover, has been) made better and reach out to new players, not just to old nostalgic guys who want their precious old booklets or books that look just like them. Now, if you'll excuse me, mine are in the other room...
Take a lot of tissue with you.
Are you trying to say something about Morgan Ironwolf?