I want to play a character that can fight and cast. I am torn between an Eldritch Knight and a Bard.
I have two questions:
1) If you were running a game would you allow a Bard whose art was swordplay? I'm not taken with the idea of running about singing but I was watching a martial arts class practice with a sword (and other weapons)once and the forms and styles seemed like art to me (but I am uneducated in this area). I think it could really fit for things like inspiring courage and dirge of doom (even though its not a dirge).
2) Which would you choose to play given the choice. A Bard with a Gish bent or an Eldritch Knight? Am I just bending the idea of a Bard too much? I'm not looking to be the front line fighter of our group just able to competently wield a sword.
Thanks.
If you have the APG, it looks like fighter/arcane duelist (bard)/eldritch knight might be worthwhile.
I want to play a character that can fight and cast. I am torn between an Eldritch Knight and a Bard.
I have two questions:
1) If you were running a game would you allow a Bard whose art was swordplay? I'm not taken with the idea of running about singing but I was watching a martial arts class practice with a sword (and other weapons)once and the forms and styles seemed like art to me (but I am uneducated in this area). I think it could really fit for things like inspiring courage and dirge of doom (even though its not a dirge).
2) Which would you choose to play given the choice. A Bard with a Gish bent or an Eldritch Knight? Am I just bending the idea of a Bard too much? I'm not looking to be the front line fighter of our group just able to competently wield a sword.
Thanks.
There certainly seem to be a few option that downplay the singing bard tradition in the APG, I am thinking you might want to obtain a copy or pdf before you are starting a lengthy campaign, almost guaranteed to have some good options for your character concept.
I want to play a character that can fight and cast. I am torn between an Eldritch Knight and a Bard.
I have two questions:
1) If you were running a game would you allow a Bard whose art was swordplay? I'm not taken with the idea of running about singing but I was watching a martial arts class practice with a sword (and other weapons)once and the forms and styles seemed like art to me (but I am uneducated in this area). I think it could really fit for things like inspiring courage and dirge of doom (even though its not a dirge).
2) Which would you choose to play given the choice. A Bard with a Gish bent or an Eldritch Knight? Am I just bending the idea of a Bard too much? I'm not looking to be the front line fighter of our group just able to competently wield a sword.
Thanks.
Art of swordplay sounds like Acting, to me. In fact I think that sounds great-- a bard who's not specifically trained in fighting, but just acting as this legendary Errol Flynn-esque hero in a series of stage plays, kind of like, say, an actor for James Bond portraying him through several movies... sounds like a good level 1 character concept, and as he evolves he truly becomes the legend he's emulating.
Bards can also very easily competently wield a sword. They're very good at it later on-- I would suggest checking out the Arcane Duelist archetype in the APG, or Treantmonk's guide to bards. Either or has great advice on being the skirmisher for the group.
There certainly seem to be a few option that downplay the singing bard tradition in the APG, I am thinking you might want to obtain a copy or pdf before you are starting a lengthy campaign, almost guaranteed to have some good options for your character concept.
Aghh, I won't have that for another week or so... If someone who already has it wants to drop me a hint or two about any "fighting" Bard types my email is nephandi24@yahoo.com
I don't want to get anyone in trouble for talking about a book that hasn't been officially released yet on the boards.
Thanks
Oscar
1) If you were running a game would you allow a Bard whose art was swordplay? I'm not taken with the idea of running about singing but I was watching a martial arts class practice with a sword (and other weapons)once and the forms and styles seemed like art to me (but I am uneducated in this area). I think it could really fit for things like inspiring courage and dirge of doom (even though its not a dirge).
I would say: perform (Dancing)
Hagor
Art of swordplay sounds like Acting, to me. In fact I think that sounds great-- a bard who's not specifically trained in fighting, but just acting as this legendary Errol Flynn-esque hero in a series of stage plays, kind of like, say, an actor for James Bond portraying him through several movies... sounds like a good level 1 character concept, and as he evolves he truly becomes the legend he's emulating.Bards can also very easily competently wield a sword. They're very good at it later on-- I would suggest checking out the Arcane Duelist archetype in the APG, or Treantmonk's guide to bards. Either or has great advice on being the skirmisher for the group.
Ahh Arcane Duelist is in the APG then, OK. Someone earlier had mentioned it. Damn, more waiting.
On the plus side I used my limited searchfu to find Treatmonk's Bard Guide. Thanks for suggesting it!
Thanks again,
Oscar
I want to play a character that can fight and cast. I am torn between an Eldritch Knight and a Bard.
Why not be both?
The Combat Bard - this character concept is basically a melee-focused bard (one level in fighter) taking eldritch knight to keep BAB high.
Half-Elf Bard 4/Fighter 1
19 Str (16 +2 race +1 level), 14 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha (20-Point Buy)
B1- Arcane Strike, Skill Focus (Disable Device)
F1- Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
B2- Power Attack; Versatile Performance (Oratory)
B4- Cleave
Skills: Climb 1 (+8), Disable Device 5 (+10), Knowledge (Local) 2 (+7), Perception 5 (+9), Perform (Dance) 2 (+7), Perform (Oratory) 4 (+9), Spellcraft 2 (+5), Stealth 2 (+7), Use Magic Device 4 (+9)
Spells (CL 4): 1st-4, 2nd-2
Spells Known: dancing lights, daze, detect magic, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic; animate rope, cure light wounds, hideous laughter, sleep; glitterdust, heroism
Animate rope (and a couple whips), along with sleep are probably the two best spells for a 1st level bard. Add cure light wounds and hideous laughter at 2nd and 3rd level. Heroism is absolutely your number one 2nd-level spell pick; glitterdust can both disable (blind) and reveal hidden/invisible foes. With the above skills, the character can also act as the "face" and fill in for the rogue.
The character can qualify for eldritch knight at bard 7/fighter 1. However, I prefer to wait until bard 9/fighter 1 to gain Inspire Greatness, which is IMO more useful at 10th level than Spell Critical is at 18th level. At bard 9/fighter 1, the character may look like this:
24 Str (16 +2 race +2 level +4 belt), 14 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 16 Cha (14 +2 headband)
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Str); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Adaptability (Skill Focus as bonus feat); Elf-Blood; Elven Immunities (immune to magic sleep effects, +2 vs. Enchantment); Keen Senses (+2 Perception checks); Multitalented (two favored classes- Bard, Fighter)
Class Features: Bardic Knowledge (+5), Bardic Performance (23 rounds/day, move action, Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate DC 18, Inspire Courage +2, Inspire Competence +3, Suggestion DC 18, Dirge of Doom, Inspire Greatness), Cantrips, Versatile Performance (Dance- Acrobatics, Fly; Oratory- Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Well-Versed (+4 saves vs. bardic performance, sonic, language-dependent effects), Lore Master (take 10 on Knowledge checks, take 20 1x/day); Bonus Feat (1)
Skills*: Climb 1 (+9/+11), Disable Device 10 (+14/+16), Knowledge (Local) 4 (+12/+14), Perception 10 (+14/+16), Perform (Dance) 5 (+11/+13), Perform (Oratory) 8 (+14/+16), Spellcraft 5 (+8/+10), Stealth 4 (+8/+10), Use Magic Device 9 (+15/+17)
Feats: Arcane Strike, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Disable Device), Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Spells*: Bard (CL 9); 1st-6, 2nd-5 (4), 3rd-4
Spells Known: dancing lights, daze, detect magic, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic; animate rope, cure light wounds, feather fall, hideous laughter, identify; cat's grace, glitterdust, heroism, sound burst; cure serious wounds, dispel magic, fear, haste
Gear: +2 mithral breastplate (+8 AC, +5 Max Dex, -1 Armor Check; 8,200 gp), +1 composite longbow (+7 Str bonus) (3,100 gp), +2 greatsword (8,350 gp), ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +2 (8,000 gp), belt of giant strength +4 (16,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp), headband of alluring charisma +2 (4,000 gp), 350 gp of miscellaneous gear
Combat*: AC 24 (touch 14, flat-footed 22), 69.5 avg. hp, +17/+12 (+19/+14) greatsword (2d6+12 damage, 19-20/x2) or +10/+5 (+12/+7) longbow (1d8+8 damage, 20/x3), Fort +8 (+10), Ref +10 (+12), Will +7 (+9), Init +6, CMB +14, CMD 26
*- second values include the effects of heroism (90 min duration; +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and saves)
Melee combat tactics: Round 1- casts haste as a standard action (9 round duration; +30 ft enhancement bonus to speed, +1 on attack rolls, +1 dodge bonus to AC and Ref saves, one extra attack on full attack action) and activates Inspire Courage (+2 competence bonus on attack rolls and weapon damage) or Inspire Greatness (+2d10+2 hp- avg. 13, +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, +1 on Fort saves) on self as a move action, Round 2- maintains Inspire Greatness as a free action, draws greatsword and moves toward opponent(s) at 60 ft speed as a move action, activates Arcane Strike as a swift action (weapon gains untyped +2 bonus on damage), and Power Attacks (-2 on attack roll, +6 on damage rolls) with either Cleave or Vital Strike, Round 3+- maintains Inspire Greatness as a free action, activates Arcane Strike as a swift action, and Power Attacks with a full-attack action. This can occur up to 4 times per day (haste), for up to 5 rounds average per fight (Bardic Performance); Arcane Strike and Power Attack are unlimited.
AC 25 (touch 15, flat-footed 22), 82.5 avg. hp, +20/+20/+15 greatsword (2d6+20 damage, 19-20/x2), Fort +11, Ref +13
OR
AC 25 (touch 15, flat-footed 22), 69.5 avg. hp, +20/+20/+15 greatsword (2d6+22 damage, 19-20/x2), Ref +13
I want to play a character that can fight and cast. I am torn between an Eldritch Knight and a Bard.Why not be both?
The Combat Bard - this character concept is basically a melee-focused bard (one level in fighter) taking eldritch knight to keep BAB high.
Half-Elf Bard 4/Fighter 1
19 Str (16 +2 race +1 level), 14 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha (20-Point Buy)
B1- Arcane Strike, Skill Focus (Disable Device)
F1- Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
B2- Power Attack; Versatile Performance (Oratory)
B4- Cleave
Skills: Climb 1 (+8), Disable Device 5 (+10), Knowledge (Local) 2 (+7), Perception 5 (+9), Perform (Dance) 2 (+7), Perform (Oratory) 4 (+9), Spellcraft 2 (+5), Stealth 2 (+7), Use Magic Device 4 (+9)
Spells (CL 4): 1st-4, 2nd-2
Spells Known: dancing lights, daze, detect magic, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic; animate rope, cure light wounds, hideous laughter, sleep; glitterdust, heroismAnimate rope (and a couple whips), along with sleep are probably the two best spells for a 1st level bard. Add cure light wounds and hideous laughter at 2nd and 3rd level. Heroism is absolutely your number one 2nd-level spell pick; glitterdust can both disable (blind) and reveal hidden/invisible foes. With the above skills, the character can also act as the "face" and fill in for the rogue.
The character can qualify for eldritch knight at bard 7/fighter 1. However, I prefer to wait until bard 9/fighter 1 to gain Inspire Greatness, which is IMO more useful at 10th level than Spell Critical is at 18th level. At bard 9/fighter 1, the character may look like this:
** spoiler omitted **...
To be honest it hadn't even occured to me that I could follow Bard into Eldritch Knight, ty for pointing that out and ty for the extensive work you put into answering my question. Your build looks really good and I may steal it from you : )
After having someone mention the Arcane Duelist I'm gonna wait and see what that's about before I decide.
Thanks
Oscar
I would recomend NOT following bard into eldrich knight. Your spellcasting worsens from losing 3 spell levels, which also lowers your damage from arcane strike. Your damage worsens from losing bardic performance boosts, which would normally also keep your hit the same as an eldrich knights. About the only bennefit is +1 hit and +2 damage from taking fighter only feats, but that does not make up for the loss.
I have done Ninja before with bard, using dance (martial arts kata) and acting (Kabuki action). Oratory also works well for someone who wants to be inspirational. Comedy can also be used to great effect insulting your opponents as they attack you.
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Combat bards work amazingly well; especially from 7 on (nothing quite like round 1 haste + bardsong). I'd stat:
Str: 19 (stat bumps here)
Int: 7 (Human gets back a skill point)
Wis: 7 (gishes need dump; save hit hurts a little)
Dex: 14
Con: 14 (your AC will be mediocre; even if you did have a high dex... So use hp to stay on front line)
Chr: 14 (all you need really)
Feats: combat reflexes, arcane strike 3rd: power attack 5th: toughness 7th: weapon focus 9th: lunge
Weapon of choice: I'd say Longspear... It'll keep opponents at bay (combat reflexes + spear gets you lots of extra attacks.. Throw in lunge later to attack from 15 feet away. Makes up for the low ac of bards).
So level 1 11 hp, and use Dance as your performance (representing the way you swing your spear... Will also make you a good tumbler).
This is my PFS character... He's really effective and fun to play.
I want to play a character that can fight and cast. I am torn between an Eldritch Knight and a Bard.
I have two questions:
1) If you were running a game would you allow a Bard whose art was swordplay? I'm not taken with the idea of running about singing but I was watching a martial arts class practice with a sword (and other weapons)once and the forms and styles seemed like art to me (but I am uneducated in this area). I think it could really fit for things like inspiring courage and dirge of doom (even though its not a dirge).
2) Which would you choose to play given the choice. A Bard with a Gish bent or an Eldritch Knight? Am I just bending the idea of a Bard too much? I'm not looking to be the front line fighter of our group just able to competently wield a sword.
Thanks.
What material do you have access to? There are a few good 3rd party pathfinder options for a caster/fighter mix. There are also a few homebrew ideas floating around here on the boards that are pretty good.
I want to play a character that can fight and cast. I am torn between an Eldritch Knight and a Bard.
I have two questions:
1) If you were running a game would you allow a Bard whose art was swordplay? I'm not taken with the idea of running about singing but I was watching a martial arts class practice with a sword (and other weapons)once and the forms and styles seemed like art to me (but I am uneducated in this area). I think it could really fit for things like inspiring courage and dirge of doom (even though its not a dirge).
2) Which would you choose to play given the choice. A Bard with a Gish bent or an Eldritch Knight? Am I just bending the idea of a Bard too much? I'm not looking to be the front line fighter of our group just able to competently wield a sword.
Thanks.
You only need 16 CHA to cast all bard spells. This is very easy to accomplish. If you want a graceful swordfighting bard this would be my suggestion. Elven fighter 1/bard 8/EK10 finish with bard or fighter.. your preference. Try to get up to a +8 dex bonus for max bonus with celestial armor, which you will probably want at some point.
1-5 feats would be arcane strike, weapon finesse, pirhana strike, and weapon focus, after that it's free game for save boosters, movement options, whatever you like.Another option would be to go greatsword or the longspear like previously mentioned and be strength focused which saves you feats and blends great with DD. If you cast spells like haste instead of confusion you are assured success and don't need to have that much CHA this is IMO the best way to run a combat based bard. 7 levels of bard lets you haste and inspire courage in one round so that is key.
Good luck - P.S. Nothing is wrong with going bard all the way. They get Rapiers so you don't need any fighter levels, and a armored, buckler wearing bard can cast with sword in hand with no penalties. Inspire courage simulates full BAB and buffs your group.
The thing that makes a Bard is a performance that communicates and inspires others. and it needs to be sound based. It can be instrument, it can be sung, it can be oratory. But just swinging metal by itself as much as it might appeals to Errol Flynn fans isn't going to be enough for a bardic performance.
Many of the bardic abilities can be done without sound. Many specifically say they can be done without it. Only a few say they need sound, and then you han be shouting "heya", and "take that evildoer."
The thing that makes a Bard is a performance that communicates and inspires others. and it needs to be sound based. It can be instrument, it can be sung, it can be oratory. But just swinging metal by itself as much as it might appeals to Errol Flynn fans isn't going to be enough for a bardic performance.Many of the bardic abilities can be done without sound. Many specifically say they can be done without it. Only a few say they need sound, and then you han be shouting "heya", and "take that evildoer."
Agree that you can certainly have bardic talents that don't require sound. However, I would stipulate that if you take one, then you have to perform it where it can be witnessed by those you seek to inspire, or you don't get the inspire bonus. So, a bard using his awesome mime skills to inspire couldn't do that from the rear with the gear.
On OP's original question, I see no reason why "sword-dancing" or some such couldn't be a perform skill. However, I don't believe that just taking that skill would give you any combat bonuses with a sword. Big difference between making pretty, flashy moves with a sword and actually using it in a fight. Many of the flourishes and spins and so forth that you see martial artists in movies and performances make have little real utility in combat (unless your goal is to make your opponent giggle). There is a reason why they call it "fight choreography" in movies. It has more relation to dancing than real fighting. Lots of skill and dexterity involved, but the purpose is to entertain and look good, rather than actually kill something. So this is really right up a bard's alley, I would say.
The thing that makes a Bard is a performance that communicates and inspires others. and it needs to be sound based. It can be instrument, it can be sung, it can be oratory. But just swinging metal by itself as much as it might appeals to Errol Flynn fans isn't going to be enough for a bardic performance.Many of the bardic abilities can be done without sound. Many specifically say they can be done without it. Only a few say they need sound, and then you han be shouting "heya", and "take that evildoer."Agree that you can certainly have bardic talents that don't require sound. However, I would stipulate that if you take one, then you have to perform it where it can be witnessed by those you seek to inspire, or you don't get the inspire bonus. So, a bard using his awesome mime skills to inspire couldn't do that from the rear with the gear.
On OP's original question, I see no reason why "sword-dancing" or some such couldn't be a perform skill. However, I don't believe that just taking that skill would give you any combat bonuses with a sword. Big difference between making pretty, flashy moves with a sword and actually using it in a fight. Many of the flourishes and spins and so forth that you see martial artists in movies and performances make have little real utility in combat (unless your goal is to make your opponent giggle). There is a reason why they call it "fight choreography" in movies. It has more relation to dancing than real fighting. Lots of skill and dexterity involved, but the purpose is to entertain and look good, rather than actually kill something. So this is really right up a bard's alley, I would say.
In 2nd edition there was a bard blade in the bard's handbook, it was barely any better than the average bard in combat, but he was scary
I would recomend NOT following bard into eldrich knight. Your spellcasting worsens from losing 3 spell levels, which also lowers your damage from arcane strike. Your damage worsens from losing bardic performance boosts, which would normally also keep your hit the same as an eldrich knights. About the only bennefit is +1 hit and +2 damage from taking fighter only feats, but that does not make up for the loss.
1) A bard 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 10 loses 2 levels of spell progression, not 3. With the Magical Knack feat (+2 CL in selected class, not to exceed HD), the CL equals HD. Even without the trait, a difference of +1 on damage has less effect than an extra iterative attack or a +1 on attack rolls.
2) A bard 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 10 has a +17 BAB, compared to a +15 BAB for a straight bard. The eldritch knight's Inspire Courage adds +2 to attack and damage, compared to +4 for a straight bard; the attack bonus is a wash when Inspire Courage is up (without it the eldritch knight is ahead); with one fighter-only feat (Weapon Specialization), the damage is a wash with the primary weapon. However, the eldritch knight has one more iterative attack, which puts the eldritch knight ahead on total damage with a full attack action. With Greater Weapon Focus, the eldritch knight is superior to the straight bard with the primary weapon using AoOs, standard action attacks, etc. This leaves one more bonus combat feat to be used in whatever fashion is desired.
3) The only "real" losses are 22 rounds per day of bardic performance (which can be mitigated with the Extra Performance feat), the ability to affect more than one person with Inspire Greatness (which is limited to a maximum of 4 total targets at 18th level), and additional performances (Soothing Performance, Frightening Tune, Inspire Heroics, Mass Suggestion, and Deadly Performance). That and knowing 1 less each 4th-, 5th-, and 6th-level spell. If you consider these absolutely essential "must haves," then no multiclassing would probably be worth it to you...
In 2nd edition there was a bard blade in the bard's handbook, it was barely any better than the average bard in combat, but he was scary
See the Intimidate skill (Demoralize action) and the feats Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, and Deadly Stroke.
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In 2nd edition there was a bard blade in the bard's handbook, it was barely any better than the average bard in combat, but he was scarySee the Intimidate skill (Demoralize action) and the feats Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, and Deadly Stroke.
This very much this. How much of this? How many gallons? Enough I say... enough gallons of this.
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I don't know if TreantMonk's Guide to Bards has been linked yet, but the Melee Bard option he details works very well.
May I suggest the Totem Spear, an Exotic Spear-like weapon that be used with the Perform (Wind Instrument)skill by a bard trained in it's use. It will require burning an Feat via the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use, but you can use a weapon AND a Perform Skill at the exact same time, which is a plus and you can avoid the 'chirping songbird' stereotype for your Eldritch Knight.
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This very much this. How much of this? How many gallons? Enough I say... enough gallons of this.Liters...
Sheesh, and you call yourself The Metric System.
Good catch! Lucky we didn't have another one of those Mars Rover incidents!
PS! This thread makes me want to revive my warforged Bard who specialized in perform (One man band) and got all his instruments grafted to him!