Hi again,
Re-reading the magic item creation section, I stumbled upon this: Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.
This doesn't say if it applies only to the market price, the crafting cost, or both. Can a character craft a magic item made for a given class, his own?
Other question: do the cost cuts stack?
- say, a character wants to craft an item instead of buying it (-50%)
- he wants to make it for his own class (-30%)
- he has the Hedge Magician trait (-5%)
- he also selected the Extraordinary Artisan feat (from Eberron, gives -25%)
Is this going to stack?
1-(1-50%)x(1-30%)x(1-5%)x(1-25%)=75% total reduction, not -110% of course :-)
Hi again,
Re-reading the magic item creation section, I stumbled upon this: Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.
This doesn't say if it applies only to the market price, the crafting cost, or both. Can a character craft a magic item made for a given class, his own?
Other question: do the cost cuts stack?
- say, a character wants to craft an item instead of buying it (-50%)
- he wants to make it for his own class (-30%)
- he has the Hedge Magician trait (-5%)
- he also selected the Extraordinary Artisan feat (from Eberron, gives -25%)
Is this going to stack?
1-(1-50%)x(1-30%)x(1-5%)x(1-25%)=75% total reduction, not -110% of course :-)
Well, the hedge magician trait is certainly intended to "stack" with the standard 50% cost for crafting items so those two should work fine together.
The class-specific reduction also applies to the base price so it would seem that it would stack appropriately as well.
I don't think I'd allow the Eberron feat in my own games, but as it's worded in a similar fashion to the hedge magician trait, I'd say it should stack too.
So, in the end, you end up with an item with a base price 70% of what's listed and it only costs you 25% of the listed price to make.
First off, cost to craft is not a -50% modifier. The cost to craft is simply half the market value. That may or may not have an effect on your calculations, depending on how you swing your algebra.
A character can certainly craft an item restricted to his own class: however, and this is a BIG HOWEVER, while there are no rules explicitly stating it, I would rule the following.
(A) the character can only craft items restricted to his own class(es), and may not create itmes restricted to any other classes. So if he wants to save some bucks making that belt of +6 str for the fighter, hes out of luck. His headband of +6 int is fine though.
(B) The cost reductions should also apply to the market price should he ever want to sell the item. Who wants to buy a ring of protection +2 that only wizards can wear? Only other wizards. You have just cut your potential market severely, and will likely have to drop the cost to make it encouraging to the wizard, who was likely to give the ring to his familiar or apprentice when he found something more useful to wear on his finger.
Hedge magician should stack, regardless. Its a small bonus, but appreciable. It is also from a pathfinder trait, so it should be considered "compatible" with the pathfinder crafting rules.
Extraordinary Artisian is a different story, for exactly the reasons I mentioned above. It is not from any Pathfinder supplement, nor is it even from a Pathfinder supporting 3rd party product. It is from Eberron, which is part of 3.5, and as such not from Pathfinder. Its compatibility with the system is extremely suspect, only to be rivaled by 3.0 material or 3.0/3.5 3rd party material. It should be allowed only after the DM has taken time to consider its ramifications AND write down officially (on paper, a text file, or whatever) how it will interact with the Pathfinder creation system in his game. (I'm a big fan of getting the DM to write down how any imported or houseruled material is going to work, followed by the player(s) involved adding his initials. Keeps things tidy.)
So, with that in mind, the discount of your proposed item is 60% (30+5+25). An item with a market cost of 20,000, which would normally cost 10,000 to make, would cost 4,000 to make (10k x 60%).
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When groups I play with discovered these discounts, they got used excessively by crafters. We ended up deciding on two things: (A)They should at least take a feat, probably one per restriction and (B) That the discount on cost to make is less (roughly 1/3, or 10% total) than the amount the market price is reduced. We did this partly because the rules almost seemed like "This is how the DM adjusts the price if he throws them on an item he makes." rather than "This is how to make items cheaper as a player." This was backed up by the fact that this section was a copy-paste from the DMG, not the PHB IIRC.
The first point was to make it so that not every single item crafted for the character's self was restricted to their race, class, alignment and one of their skills, and consequently to avoid them having a ludicrous number of magic items. The second was to make it so that the advantage provided for the feat was a little more reasonable without modifying market value.
As a trade-off the reduction in cost became a reduction in base price and thus reduced the crafting time.
Yes, cost reductions stack. However, you do not add them up. You multiply them together.
If you have the -50%, -30%, -5%, and -25%, you don't add them all up. Rather, the real effects are x50%, x70%, x95%, and x75%. .5*.7*.95*.75=24.9375%.
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Hi again,
Re-reading the magic item creation section, I stumbled upon this: Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.
This doesn't say if it applies only to the market price, the crafting cost, or both. Can a character craft a magic item made for a given class, his own?
Other question: do the cost cuts stack?
- say, a character wants to craft an item instead of buying it (-50%)- he wants to make it for his own class (-30%)
This is not a disadvantage and he should not get this reduction. This is confirmed in the GMG.
- he has the Hedge Magician trait (-5%)
What is this from? This would reduce the crafting cost by 5%.
- he also selected the Extraordinary Artisan feat (from Eberron, gives -25%)
I wouldn't allow this to stack with the hedge magician trait, both of them are essentially tricks for cutting corners on crafting.
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Here is what the GMG says about class restrictions reducing item prices.
Disadvantages that Aren't Be wary of items that are designed with a class or alignment restriction in order to lower the price. Since the items restriction doesn't restrict the character who is going to use it, it isn't really a drawback at all and shouldn't reduce the price.
Edit: The GMG has a lot of good tips about pricing magic items.
First off, cost to craft is not a -50% modifier. The cost to craft is simply half the market value.
If you say so. Personally, I see no difference.
(A) the character can only craft items restricted to his own class(es), and may not create itmes restricted to any other classes. So if he wants to save some bucks making that belt of +6 str for the fighter, hes out of luck. His headband of +6 int is fine though.
Why? Assuming he sells it with the same -30% which the rules seem to indicate, it's not really a problem, is it? It's even "worse" since he loses on the sale.
(B) The cost reductions should also apply to the market price should he ever want to sell the item.
Agreeing to apply the "class only" cut on the sale, I don't see why you should apply the cut from Hedge Magician (or Extraordinary Artisan) to the sale. That would mean that you don't reward talent. You invested a trait and a feat into this, after all.
Extraordinary Artisian [...] is not from any Pathfinder supplement, nor is it even from a Pathfinder supporting 3rd party product. It is from Eberron, which is part of 3.5, and as such not from Pathfinder. Its compatibility with the system is extremely suspect, only to be rivaled by 3.0 material or 3.0/3.5 3rd party material.
Pathfinder RPG has been repeatedly said to be downward compatible with D&D 3.5. I think it has been a cornerpiece of their marketing scheme. I don't see why one would reject a 3.5 book on principle alone, or we are in T$R courtyard again.
__________Yes, cost reductions stack. However, you do not add them up. You multiply them together.
If you have the -50%, -30%, -5%, and -25%, you don't add them all up. Rather, the real effects are x50%, x70%, x95%, and x75%. .5*.7*.95*.75=24.9375%.
I specifically wrote my computation so that people wouldn't assume I'm adding them up. The -75% of price was rounded and corresponds to your 24.9% (of the market price).
__________- he wants to make it for his own class (-30%)This is not a disadvantage and he should not get this reduction. This is confirmed in the GMG.
What is the GMG? I've seen this before, but not its explanation.
- he has the Hedge Magician trait (-5%)What is this from?
Pathfinder Character Trait web enhancement, acting as base for those traits they've listed in their campaign sourcebooks. And you can find a whole list of them at the archive of Nethys.
- he also selected the Extraordinary Artisan feat (from Eberron, gives -25%)I wouldn't allow this to stack with the hedge magician trait, both of them are essentially tricks for cutting corners on crafting.
I'm agreeing with you on that point, but it's not written as such (the cost cut isn't a typed bonus and all).
Here is what the GMG says about class restrictions reducing item prices.
Disadvantages that Aren't Be wary of items that are designed with a class or alignment restriction in order to lower the price. Since the items restriction doesn't restrict the character who is going to use it, it isn't really a drawback at all and shouldn't reduce the price.Edit: The GMG has a lot of good tips about pricing magic items.
Crafting for a class can be a "disadvantage that doesn't appear to be so"... until the character tries to sell his item (in order to get money to make another one more powerful, pay a ransom, etc). Then it becomes painly obvious. Getting a -30% on the crafting cost and -30% on the market price (usually twice the crafting cost) means that you "lose" twice the gold you gained.
Imagine you make an item costing 1000gp to craft, for a market price of 2000gp. You decide to cut the cost by making the item customized for your class, and it now costs 700gp (I guess that it implies that the item uses that class' shenanigans to power itself, this would be a good explanation on cutting crafting costs).
If (and only if) your GM allows you to sell crafted items at their market value, you still apply -30% to the market price, so you'd sell it 1400gp (if you find a customer, of course). Instead of gaining 1000gp from the sale, you gain only 700gp off the whole process.
So it's still a disadvantage.
__________
Generally the rule of thumb I use and that James Jacobs recommends (1), is that a restriction which does not impair the character's own use of the item should not be allowed to reduce the cost of it. Many items by definition are only usable by one class or one type of class, (i.e. wand of magic missle, wand of fireball etc.) and would not merit such a reduction anyway.
I would also rule that the Hedge Magician and the Extroadinary Artisan traits are the same kind of bonus and render then nonstackable, in other words only the highest bonus applies. (2)
(1) so it's Rule 0. I'm interested in every advice you all have on this, but especially what the rules allow. There's a difference in what James Jacobs recommends and what Paizo publishes. And I wrote something (just above) about the (very slight) disadvantage of crafting for your own class.
(2) same as above (rule 0 since these aren't typed bonuses). I'm looking for completeness rules-wise.
__________
The best way to handle these things if you do not want them to stack is to just ban them from the game. Determine how much of a reduction you will allow, and how much character resources you want them to spend to get it.
That's from the GM's point of view, which I have no problem with when I GM. However, having a couple character ideas, I wanted to build them within the rules.
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Why post of the forums like you are asking a few simple questions when you are only interested in validating your own point of view? That's a crude form of trolling.
GMG == Game Mastery Guide
The game designers have blessed us with a book filled with advice about how to run the game. That little tidbit was in the section on advice about pricing magic items if it wasn't obvious.
Why post of the forums like you are asking a few simple questions when you are only interested in validating your own point of view? That's a crude form of trolling.
GMG == Game Mastery Guide
The game designers have blessed us with a book filled with advice about how to run the game. That little tidbit was in the section on advice about pricing magic items if it wasn't obvious.
Sorry about that. I may have sounded crude and (insert other adjectives here) but it wasn't my intention. I'm interested in all advices, but primarily those using the rules as they are written.
Why?Because I'm building those characters in advance, and I'm not sure who will be the GM when I'll play them. So it's natural to want them to be the most within the rules possible.
About the GMG: I don't own that book, and neither does my gaming group. Is its content available online? My own sources are the online PRD and the 3.5 books I own (which I don't want to throw away just now, as they did cost a pretty penny - which is why I'm posting all those 3.5/PRPG mixes).
Thanks for your patience and sorry again if I sounded b@@**y about things.
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Because I'm building those characters in advance, and I'm not sure who will be the GM when I'll play them. So it's natural to want them to be the most within the rules possible.
It seems to me like you are more interested in pushing the rules as far to their limits as you can than being interested in being within the rules.
Many (most) GMs are not going to let you bring a character to the table with a bunch of crafted custom magic items. I certainly wouldn't. The guidelines for crafting items in the book are just that, guidelines, they are not hard and fast rules, it's up to the GM to set pricing on items because of the way they affect game balance.
About the GMG: I don't own that book, and neither does my gaming group. Is its content available online? My own sources are the online PRD and the 3.5 books I own (which I don't want to throw away just now, as they did cost a pretty penny - which is why I'm posting all those 3.5/PRPG mixes).
Thanks for your patience and sorry again if I sounded b#~@%y about things.
GM's guide content is mostly advice, there are some rules in there but the bulk of the book is advice on how to run your game. The contents are not available online and most of it probably never will be since only the game mechanics are OGL. The PDF is $10 and well worth it.
GM's guide content is mostly advice, there are some rules in there but the bulk of the book is advice on how to run your game. The contents are not available online and most of it probably never will be since only the game mechanics are OGL. The PDF is $10 and well worth it.
Thank you for the information, I'll look into buying this.
Because I'm building those characters in advance, and I'm not sure who will be the GM when I'll play them. So it's natural to want them to be the most within the rules possible.It seems to me like you are more interested in pushing the rules as far to their limits as you can than being interested in being within the rules.
Guilty as charged?
Seriously, now. I have played D&D since T$R. I'm tired of playing the regular gang, so I'm looking at what the rules provide, as written in the books (and the "game mechanics" as published by Paizo). Since rule A says "-50%" and excerpt B says "-30%' and web enhancement C says "-5%" and handbook D says "-25%", I was curious about stacking. Don't we all?
And, in my mind, pushing at the rules' boundaries allows recognition of where the rules really end. Isn't that how all teenagers define authority? ;-)
Many (most) GMs are not going to let you bring a character to the table with a bunch of crafted custom magic items. I certainly wouldn't. The guidelines for crafting items in the book are just that, guidelines, they are not hard and fast rules, it's up to the GM to set pricing on items because of the way they affect game balance.
In this particular instance of starting a character with crafted items with a discount, you're totally right, of course. Any GM would be wary of including a new high-level character in a party if most of his WBL was spent on crafting items at -75% while the party only got random treasures (which we all know aren't always useful at all). But including such a character in a party in which all the others have equivalent gear wouldn't be inappropriate, I think. It's all about balance.
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Many (most) GMs are not going to let you bring a character to the table with a bunch of crafted custom magic items. I certainly wouldn't. The guidelines for crafting items in the book are just that, guidelines, they are not hard and fast rules, it's up to the GM to set pricing on items because of the way they affect game balance.
Dennis,
You do realise Viletta has already visited this thread, don't you?That's like a red rag to a bull.
I predict this thread will go over 1000 posts by Monday...
LOL
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I have had similar debate with one of my players; he's not a caster, but just wanted to know what price he could commission an item (a device to emulate a future ability to jump to/from the Plane of Shadow 1/day, so he's not trapped there overnight).
I'll spare you most of the conversation, but the relevant bit went as follows:
Nice. Give it 50 charges as well, before the thing crumbles to dust. Halve that cost.
And can I ask why we’re using plane shift and not shadow walk as a basis?
That’d be 13*5 rather than 9*5 but shadow walk isn’t quite so random when you return, and in the MOP it states that natives to the plane of shadow (ahem) can more accurately predict where they will come out. That would replace the second 0.7 mod you’ve put down – I’m not sure about either of those by the way –if you’re basing it on plane shift and then removing 90% of the destinations, 90% of the number of people affected, I don’t think you get 0.7 – isn’t it closer to 0.01? Let’s say 0.5 to be nice :)
And as for unusual usage restrictions, there’s extraplanar (shadow) sub-type(0.7), and shadowy environment (0.7) giving it overall 0.49.
I don’t think you can reduce the cost further by having it be both charged and uses/day.
The 0.7 multipliers are standard suggestions from the SRD, and are meant to represent significant restrictions on users, not necessarily that ‘70% of PCs’ can use it.
An example would be an item activated by turn attempts, only 2 classes from the base 11 can do this, but it would still not get an 80% discount.
While it hinders an item being passed round the party, how often does that happen? It’s generally a non-restriction, since you can either use it, and don’t notice the limits, or you can’t use it, and you’d have sold it, or not commisioned it.
An item that fired off ‘Power Word Kill, but only against illithids’ shouldn’t be priced at 1% of the norm, because they’re rare creatures. It either doesn’t apply, making it a pointless item, or it derails the campaign, when the owner runs off into the Underdark with it.
Similarly, I’m not going to have you commision an item that only works for ‘human Suloise Scout/Ranger shadowbloods called Fayne’ for 0.000001% of cost. :)
I have had similar debate with one of my players; he's not a caster, but just wanted to know what price he could commission an item (...)
Thanks to Pathfinder RPG, characters can now craft their magic items without needing to be a caster.
One of my (virtual as of yet) characters, a monk, has taken Master Craftsman (profession: leatherworker) and Craft Wondrous Item, and is going to make himself a belt of physical attributes enhancing. Since he can't cast the spell, he'll have to add 5 to the DC, but it's otherwise doable, according to the rules.Should I make a regular fighter in the same vein, he'll be more oriented towards profession: smithy in order to make his own arms and armor.
It seems that such a choice has to be made, as Master Craftsman only allow one skill to help make items, and I don't see a leatherworker making a sword, or a smithy making a cape.
To add an interesting piece of detail, the monk is human, has taken two levels of Chameleon, and the Craft Wondrous Item is one of the choices of feat he takes using the dynamic feat slot from that class (each day, he can choose a different feat to fill that slot). That way, it's only used when it's useful. No, no, I'm not pushing the rules, just using them ;-)
Another set of questions, which may or may not have been addressed in the GMG (which I still don't own)...
Magic Item Creation: The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
1) IIRC, there is a 3.5 item called Monk's Tattoo, which prerequisites include "Monk level 10." Does the quoted line imply that anyone else can craft this with just a +5 to the DC?
Magic Item Creation: The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day (...)Cursed Items: Cursed items are almost never made intentionally. Instead they are the result of rushed work, inexperienced crafters, or a lack of proper components.
Item Creation Feats: Successfully creating a magic item requires a Spellcraft check [...] The DC of this check can increase if the crafter is rushed or does not meet all of the prerequisites. A failed check ruins the materials used, while a check that fails by 5 or more results in a cursed item.
2) Can we or can't we rush the process, and, if we can, by which extent? A check that fails by 5 or more results in a cursed item, which may or may not have only mild drawbacks. Can we voluntarily "fail by 5 or more"? Additionally, would a curse detract on the item's price (bought, and crafted)?
3) I didn't see rules for crafting for a specific race/alignment/ability, nor for crafting intelligent items. Do such rules/advices exist?
4) Is it possible to create just any kind of item? Provided the GM agrees, of course, would it be possible to craft items that:
- emulate another item but not completely? Example: a Warforged component for a Human character.
- emulate a class ability?
- has a function which isn't already covered by any spell or ability?
Of course, this last question isn't about RAW since all the basic rules provide is a list of items with prerequisites. Have you played or seen someone play that way?
I have had similar debate with one of my players
And thanks for distributing it to the masses here fella. The important points were your responses, not my assumptions! Anyway, I stand by most of my email - charges and uses per day do limit the item more, and putting on limits that only my character can fulfil and then only in certain circumstances would reduce the resell value and would cause problems for me if I wanted anyone else to use it instead of me.
But anyway, you make some good points and ultimately I was only asking so steady on!
For the OP - I would be conservative rather than pushing the envelope, as no-one wants to stop play because the DM needs a half-hour just to examine some crafting costs...
(...) the DM needs a half-hour just to examine some crafting costs
That's why I'm discussing it (here and there) before playing them. I will certainly not ask that kind of question in the middle of a game.
1) IIRC, there is a 3.5 item called Monk's Tattoo, which prerequisites include "Monk level 10." Does the quoted line imply that anyone else can craft this with just a +5 to the DC?
Yes.
2) Can we or can't we rush the process, and, if we can, by which extent? A check that fails by 5 or more results in a cursed item, which may or may not have only mild drawbacks. Can we voluntarily "fail by 5 or more"? Additionally, would a curse detract on the item's price (bought, and crafted)?
You can rush an item by effectively making it "double-time". Here's the quote from the Magic Item Creation section of the PRD, with emphasis by me:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item... This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.
Can you voluntarily fail? To my knowledge, no. Check with the GM. That would be equivalent to choosing what number you roll on the die, so unless you have an ability like that, I'd say no. Your only other option would be to crank up the DC and figure out when you could take 10 mathematically.
Cursed items have no listed values, so if you wind up with a specific cursed item, I'd probably not give you very much for it if you tried to sell it as such. For items with quirks (minor curses), I'd knock something off the price. It also depends on how honest a merchant you are. Selling someone a weapon that only works when below 32 degrees when they live in the tropical rainforest and not telling them might not be a good idea....
3) I didn't see rules for crafting for a specific race/alignment/ability, nor for crafting intelligent items. Do such rules/advices exist?
Here's the intelligent items rules:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/intelligentItems.html
Specific race/alignment/ability is listed under the standard item creation rules. Generally speaking, if the restriction doesn't stop you from using an item you create, it shouldn't really give you a bonus to the creation cost. If you're an elven wizard crafting a pearl of power that only elves can use, is it really that much of a restriction?
4) 4) Is it possible to create just any kind of item? Provided the GM agrees, of course, would it be possible to craft items that:
- emulate another item but not completely? Example: a Warforged component for a Human character.
- emulate a class ability?
- has a function which isn't already covered by any spell or ability?
Of course, this last question isn't about RAW since all the basic rules provide is a list of items with prerequisites. Have you played or seen someone play that way?
You can create anything you want, with GM approval and some time. Items can be emulated just fine, the price might need some adjusting (your Warforged component is only usable by warforged I imagine, so it probably had a price drop for that, so when you make it for a human the price might go up). Class abilities are already emulated on occasion, e.g. the ring of evasion, armor/mantles of spell resistance, anything which lets you use spells, etc. And things which aren't covered by any existing spell or ability? Oh, like, say, the Instant Tower, ye old Apparatus of Kwalish (whatever it's called now), rods of wonder (tell me, do you have a spell that summons butterflies? I doubt it), or whatnot?
As always, work with the GM (unless you're the GM, of course), and use some common sense. Item pricing isn't a science; it's part science, part art form. And another suggestion: try to figure out the worst thing someone could do with the item. When you have, you are then prepared to see the item's everyday use, because players will try to do things even worse than that with it;)
Oh, and I might also suggest being careful about trying to emulate too many class abilities and whatnot in an item. If an item makes the rogue superfluous, the rogue's player might not like it, for example.
(...) the DM needs a half-hour just to examine some crafting costsThat's why I'm discussing it (here and there) before playing them. I will certainly not ask that kind of question in the middle of a game.
I wasn't aware of the and there element of your plans. That's just fine then!