hey people,
Seems I'm here again, had a player in one of the games I playing ask a question that I'm not sure how to answer. The basic Idea is using the Skirmish ability as a charge would you need Improved bull rush or improved overrun or both, niether. I kinda waffled on the ruling. Luckly I'm not the one running the game but for future refrence knowledge is helpful.
My idea you need imp bull rush or overrun.
Appreciate the help.
The skirmish ability from the 3.5e Scout (like, from the Complete Adventurer)?
The skirmish ability isn't an action in itself. You don't spend a standard action to make a skirmish attack. It's a bonus to damage on your attack and bonus to AC if you meet certain conditions.
All you need to do to get the skirmish bonus to damage and AC is to move 10 feet in the round.
Think of it like Sneak Attack... look for the condition: moved 10 feet this round, has it happened? Yes? Okay you get to make extra damage should you make an attack and have higher AC.
If you are charging and making an attack at the end, then you'd get skirmish damage added to that attack.
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I honestly don't know why Improved Bull Rush or Overrun feats are even being brought up. They only apply if you intend to overrun or bull rush your opponent.
Is this some different version of Skirmish that I haven't heard of?
Zerumm, what 'Skirmish' ability are you referring too? The one gained from the Scout base class from Complete Adventurer? If thats the case, this post should be in the 3.5/OGL Discussion Subforum.
If this is the 'Skirmish' ability from the Scout then, as written, there is no need for any feats to make the ability work as it is described. All Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun allow you to do is avoid attacks of opportunity while making either a Bull Rush or Overrun action, as well as the accompanying CMB bonus from the feats.
Skirmish is not a Bull Rush or Overrun Attack. Theoretically, you could combine Skirmish with Bull Rush or Overrun...but what would be the point? Neither Bull Rush nor Overrun cause any damage, and thus you would get no bonus damage from Skirmish either.
If you are looking to be able to Skirmish without provoking AOOs, then I'd say no as a GM. Skirmish already gives a bonus to AC for movement, thats the tradeoff. Basically...the feats you listed don't really work with Skirmish or require using a different action by the rules.
Sorry should clarified, Yes it is the Scout PrC from the Complete Adventurer. The basis of the Imp Bull Rush or Overron is due to the player wanted to use the skirmish like a charge to deliver a unarmed strike attack while getting the skirmish bonus damage.
Skirmish only requires that you move ten feet before attacking. If that criteria is met, you get the bonus damage. So, if you're ten feet away from someone, charge at them, and punch them, you get the bonus damage with no additional feats required (though you do still provoke an AoO if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike or the like).
Skirmish only requires that you move ten feet before attacking. If that criteria is met, you get the bonus damage. So, if you're ten feet away from someone, charge at them, and punch them, you get the bonus damage with no additional feats required (though you do still provoke an AoO if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike or the like).
Alright though wouldn't you need Imp Bull Rush or Overrun so you dont inccur a AoO from the charge. Yes the player have improved Unarmed strike.
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The player has skirmish, which requires moving 10ft before attacking, with a charge, which also requires moving 10ft before attacking. Seems like the requirement is (by definition) met.
This could lead to interesting characters that charge in on round 1, back out and throw an object on round 2, and on round 3+ either charge or move/throw depending on whether the opponent approached them again. Sounds like skirmishing to me.
Sorry should clarified, Yes it is the Scout PrC from the Complete Adventurer. The basis of the Imp Bull Rush or Overron is due to the player wanted to use the skirmish like a charge to deliver a unarmed strike attack while getting the skirmish bonus damage.
Ok then...I understand the intent and the ability referenced...
Why does this player want to use it like a charge? Just for the +2 Charge bonus? Technically there is nothing in Skirmish that excludes it from working with a Charge Action, so thats fine. And it wouldn't require any extra feats either.
The idea of needing Improved Bull Rush or Overrun though don't make sense. Both of those actions do * 0 * damage. Thus, Skimish doesn't stack with them.
-You move 10ft in a round, you get Skirmish bonuses to your attack that round.
-If you have at least 10ft between you and the target in a straight line, you can use a charge action.
There's no reason I can think of that would indicate Charge and Skirmish don't work together. However! If this Scout wants the +2 bonus to hit from Charging, he/she will still get the -2 AC penalty from Charging as well, which would be partly set off by the Skirmish AC bonus.
Basically, unless that +2 to attack is crucial, the player is probably better off just Skirmishing than combining Skirmish and Charge.
Basically, unless that +2 to attack is crucial, the player is probably better off just Skirmishing than combining Skirmish and Charge.
Unless it's a surprise round, or the enemy is more than 30' feet (or whatever is a normal move for this character) away.
Improved Bull Rush/Overrun does not affect charge-related AoOs. However, entering a threatened space does not provoke AoOs; only leaving them does, so he/she won't provoke AoOs against enemies with equal or lesser reach. And if the enemy has greater reach? You can tumble during a charge.
Unless it's a surprise round, or the enemy is more than 30' feet (or whatever is a normal move for this character) away.
Yes...or that.
Thank you for all the information people I really do appreciate it.
Basically, unless that +2 to attack is crucial, the player is probably better off just Skirmishing than combining Skirmish and Charge.Unless it's a surprise round, or the enemy is more than 30' feet (or whatever is a normal move for this character) away.
Or if he has pounce...