OK, we all know the bastard sword: it's a two-handed martial weapon or a one-handed exotic weapon. My question is: what if all weapons had variant uses/effects based on the proficiency level of the wielder?
For example, a spear:
The idea is that all weapons would be better based on increasing proficiency. Then we could dispense with things like "this weapon is the same as weapon X but it requires an exotic proficiency and does more damage." Instead, we could just assign the greater damage to the exotic proficiency level.
This would of course ensure that the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat became obsolete... UNLESS we changed things so that MWP gives the "martial" level of skill to a tight group of weapons, whereas the EWP feat applies only to a single weapon.
Any interest in this idea?
I like the idea, but it sounds like a lot of work.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, Yes.
YEEEEEEES!
This is a flipping awesome idea and I would want to help flesh this out.
I like the idea, but it sounds like a lot of work.
I'm not afraid of a lot of work -- I've already rewritten 60% of the core rules!
I would want to help flesh this out.
I'll keep updates on this thread. Right now I'm envisioning a table with the weapons alphabetical or by group. Each weapon would have 3 lines -- one for each level of proficiency. Light/1-hd./2-hd., range, crits, special properties would be entered into each line separately. Ooh, and another column for attack penalty (like trying to use a totally exotic weapon but you have only simple proficiency).
I'm not quite good with computers though-can I otherwise help you?
Yes! What I'll do is post ideas as I come up with them. I'm hoping people can do the same -- help brainstorm.
Rapier - Maybe bonus on CMD and CMB on disarming attempts?
I like this. Something like:
RAPIER
Exotic doesn't quite seem appropriate to imply high level of weapon expertise.
Master/Expert perhaps?
It's an exotic use of the weapon. Only exotic people would have the exotic expertise to use those exotic qualities of the exotic weapons.
(I bought stock in the letter x today).
Exotic doesn't quite seem appropriate to imply high level of weapon expertise. Master/Expert perhaps?
I agree, but we're far too late for that -- the term is already in-place and ubiquitous throughout 3e, 3.5e, and PF.
Neat concept, here's a brainstormed idea:
BATTLEAXE
I feel like the power level is off from your rapier example above, but that's what I've come up with.
Don't forget to include the racial proficiencies in your calculations. Elves get Longsword and Longbow proficiency. How will that play into your plans?
Neat concept, here's a brainstormed idea:
BATTLEAXE
Simple: Two-handed, 1d8/x3
Martial: One-handed, 1d8/x3
Exotic: One-handed, 1d8/x3, 25% on hit to get a free attack as per the Cleave feat (which also stacks with the Cleave feat) I feel like the power level is off from your rapier example above, but that's what I've come up with.
BATTLEAXE
Might work better. It's called a dwarven waraxe! ;-)
Don't forget to include the racial proficiencies in your calculations. Elves get Longsword and Longbow proficiency. How will that play into your plans?
It'll work same as it does now -- they'll get either a free Martial level of proficiency with the specified weapon, or else they'll get Exotic level of proficiency when they'd normally get Martial (e.g., war axe).
Neat concept, here's a brainstormed idea:
BATTLEAXE
Simple: Two-handed, 1d8/x3
Martial: One-handed, 1d8/x3
Exotic: One-handed, 1d8/x3, 25% on hit to get a free attack as per the Cleave feat (which also stacks with the Cleave feat) I feel like the power level is off from your rapier example above, but that's what I've come up with.
BATTLEAXE
Simple: Two-handed, 1d8/x3
Martial: One-handed, 1d8/x3 or Two-handed, 1d10/x3
Exotic: One-handed, 1d10/x3 Might work better. It's called a dwarven waraxe! ;-)
Okay, so this merges the battleaxe and the dwarven waraxe, which makes sense. Dwarven fighters would use it one-handed at 1d10, and other fighters would use it one-handed at 1d8 or two-handed at 1d10. Very concise; I like it.
I love the idea of getting the occasional Cleave hit, though. :)
Rapier - Maybe bonus on CMD and CMB on disarming attempts?I like this. Something like:
RAPIER
Simple: One-handed, -4 atk penalty, 1d6/18-20
Martial: One-handed, no atk penalty, 1d6/18-20, Finesse
Exotic: One-handed, no atk penalty, 1d8/18-20, Finesse, Disarm, +1 to Combat Expertise
I would go with simple: One-handed, 1d6/x2
IE a simple rapier loses its threat range.
I'd like to check this out, but it does sound like a lot of work.
RE: Battle axe vs. war axe, I like SmiloDan's suggestion insofar as it gets rid of an extraneous weapon (we've already got an axe bigger than a battleaxe; it's called a greataxe). Then again, I like Andostre's suggestion re: cool stuff.
Probably I'd maybe split the difference, go with SmiloDan's idea, and also add the Sunder property (+2 to CMB when sundering) when used with the Exotic level of skill.
In the same manner, we could merge the hand axe and throwing axe:
AXE, HAND
I'd like to check this out, but it does sound like a lot of work.
That's already been addressed:
I like the idea, but it sounds like a lot of work.
I'm not afraid of a lot of work -- I've already rewritten 60% of the core rules!
The only problem I can see is that some weapons are simply more complicated in design, allowing it the added features of being an exotic weapon.
Your training in quarterstaff doesn't give it bladed ends, for example.
Or about the whip, or the net... there's things that, at a base-line, don't have a simpler version.
Not to mention that sometimes there's reasons for variants of weapons... such as a Lance having extra features for mounted combat over a normal spear, or a ranseur having disarm bonuses, or a halberd having slashing or piercing damage.
I can understand upping damage.. that can fall into the training side of things easily (it already exists in things like weapon specialization and various other forms).
But a person levels up, gains martial proficiency, and suddenly his spear sprouts a bladed edge? That's where my suspension of disbelief bursts.
.
Now, if you are talking about taking every single existing weapon in core, and giving it a simpler or more exotic version of use, then it doesn't break the internal consistency at least.
There's some exotic weapons that I just don't see how you are going to make "simpler" though...
Now, if you are talking about taking every single existing weapon in core, and giving it a simpler or more exotic version of use, then it doesn't break the internal consistency at least.
Yes, that's what I had in mind. A longsword will still be different from a short sword will be different from a greatsword will be different from a rapier... and EACH of them will have three levels of proficiency. As far as staves sprouting blades, that was never the intention, and I have no idea where that idea came from -- that's a far cry from taking the battleaxe and the war axe (essentially the exact same weapon) and merging them. But nowhere did I say I wanted to merge the quarterstaff and the two-bladed sword, for example, into a single weapon -- nor do I hope that was implied.
There's some exotic weapons that I just don't see how you are going to make "simpler" though...
That's fine; they can stay exotic. Martial weapon proficiency with them will have a -4 nonproficiency penalty, exactly as it currently does. Simple proficiency can maybe apply a -8 penalty, so there's still built-in scaling. The weapon itself doesn't "become simpler."
I'd avoid making the -8 penalty scaling, because it hampers people more than they are hampered right now. Right now, a Wizard (who doesn't even have simple weapon proficiency, just a couple specific weapons known), can pick up a bastard sword and use it one-handed at only a -4 penalty.
-4 is the limit to non-proficiency. I'd be wary of making any rules changes that could put larger restrictions on the players than there are now.
I'm always of the mind to give players more options with my changes, not to take away.
Right now, a Wizard (who doesn't even have simple weapon proficiency, just a couple specific weapons known), can pick up a bastard sword and use it one-handed at only a -4 penalty.
He can also alter the laws of the universe to suit his whim. I don't reckon that making it harder for him to skillfully wield a weapon he has no training in and has never touched before is going to meaningfully hurt the game. In my opinion, the philosophy of "add, but never take away" has been applied so long -- and so disproportionately to casters -- that I personally see no problem at all in tilting things the other way a bit. If that bothers you, by all means cap the limit at -4 for your game.
Spiked Chain:
Simple: 2 handed 2d4 x2
Martial: 2 handed 2d4 x2 Trip
Exotic: 2 handed 2d4 x2 Disarm, Trip
One problem we will have is with the polearms, since the current baseline for them is the spear. Bec de Corbin, Halberd etc. I think it could be represented by a non-throwable spear (with different crit ranges possibly) with brace.
Spiked Chain:
Simple: 2 handed 2d4 x2
Martial: 2 handed 2d4 x2 Trip
Exotic: 2 handed 2d4 x2 Disarm, TripOne problem we will have is with the polearms, since the current baseline for them is the spear. Bec de Corbin, Halberd etc. I think it could be represented by a non-throwable spear (with different crit ranges possibly) with brace.
You forgot an additional feature of the Exotic: Reach and adjacent. I mean, unless you want it to be inferior to a martial weapon.
I like the idea behind this thread. And, just to throw this out there, why not rename Exotic, as was suggested above. After all, you're redesigning the whole weapon spectrum anyway, why not rename a category while you're at it? It's only a comparatively minor change, after all.
My thinking for these weapon proficiency levels is to focus on what makes the weapon unique (or at least what makes the weapon stand out from the majority of other weapons) and try to make the proficiency abilities follow that theme.
The rapier is nimble weapon with an elaborate fighting style, so the various martial and exotic abilities fit that theme in the example above. The abilities for the spiked chain above fit that weapon's theme perfectly. I envision the battleaxe as a wide-swinging powerful weapon, so Cleave seemed like a natural fit for that. Sunder seems to fit more for a heavy, bludgeoning weapon, but I realize that not everyone would necessarily make that distinction. Not every weapon or weapon group necessarily has to have unique abilities, either (although that seems more fun to me!)
My thinking with the quarterstaff (which I've been considering since before the "sprouting blades" comment above, so I'm not bashing that) is that it's the only simple, double-headed weapon. All the other double-headed weapons are exotic (in a system now has simple, martial, exotic styles instead of weapons). So...
QUARTERSTAFF
Now, the staff gets two abilities at martial to make it comparable to the other double-headed weapons that all do more damage. Such as...
ORC DOUBLE AXE
Note how the double axe is patterned off of the battleaxe stats we came up with above. The exotic ability for the two-bladed sword can be patterned off of whatever is done with the longsword, for example, the dire flail can be patterned off of the regular flail, etc.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
I like where you're heading with this... keep going! I probably still won't have a lot of two-bladed swords or dire flails, if any, in the Aviona campaign, however -- I just think they're silly.
He can also alter the laws of the universe to suit his whim.
The wizard was an example I picked out of the air. I'm talking about pretty much anyone who doesn't get proficiencies.
Would Monk be a better example? Or the Rogue using an exotic weapon.. or Bard, or Commoner?
I'm talking about making things harder for everyone who wasn't getting the proficiencies before. I'd rather not do that...
This is where reality can be used somewhat.
Going back to one of the first suggestions-the spear.
Sure a commoner with no training...or an unarmed warrior period...used them with two hands, but professionals be they Spartans or Anglo-saxon raiders, are described or depicted using only one hand.
In fact you could use the prerequisites to make Exotic: Spear straight out of 300=proficiency with spear AND tower shield.
Exotic longspear (pike) would be used to simulate the Swiss pikemen, granting bonus damage if some with a pike is beside you.
Exotic could also be used for things like volley fire for bows.
Or if you wanted to be an Indiana Jones based rogue; make a whip martial rather than exotic when just cracking it for minor damage.
Make it Exotic for things like disarms and choking.
Heck, maybe that would be a way to add martial arts as a feat:
Exotic Grapple would do extra damage like a sleeper hold, or Exotic Unarmed would be the Vulcan nerve pinch doing extra non-lethal dmg.
Knight -- yes, you've got it exactly.
Any scythe ideas?
Simple: 1d8, X2
Martial: 2d4, X4, trip
Exotic, 2d4, X4, cleave, throw (stab enemy then spin scythe to toss him)
The scythe at x4 always seemed a bit goofy to me personally, but maybe:
SCYTHE
Simple: 2d4/x3, -4 nonproficiency penalty to atks
Martial: 2d4/x3, no penalty, trip
Exotic: 1d10/x4, no penalty, trip
The simple stats mirror the current nonproficient use; no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I've been avoiding Cleave because that's already a feat, and you get it with all weapons; no one will spend a feat just to get it with one weapon. As far as tossing enemies, that's a good use for the Pathfinder CMB mechanic; maybe the scythe could provide a +2 bonus on checks. But honestly, slightly higher damage and a x4 crit is pretty nice, since you can already trip with it.
This is a fantastic, fantastic, wonderful idea. Did you have any specific weapons that need attention, or are we just spitballing here?
So far just brainstorming. I'm working on a list at home, but mostly it's been just formatting and placement.
I LOVE this idea.
However, I would shy away from granting free feats and focus more on manipulating damage and crit modifiers.
I also like the idea of adding a bonus to certain Combat Maneuvers at the exotic level.
Quarterstaff:
Simple: Two-Handed 1d6x2/1d6x2 Double, Monk
Martial: Two-Handed 1d6x2/1d6x2 Double, Monk, Trip
Exotic: Two-Handed 1d8x2/1d8x2 Double, Monk, Trip
I'd like to check this out, but it does sound like a lot of work.That's already been addressed:
I like the idea, but it sounds like a lot of work.I'm not afraid of a lot of work -- I've already rewritten 60% of the core rules!
LOL okay, fair enough.
For my homebrew, I've done something similar, but along feat lines(i.e. every weapon gets a feat, chain of feats, and/or perhaps a "super"). I'd be interested in meeting up with you once our things are done and seeing what they look like next to each other. Would you mind if I e-mailed you on this a bit?
I've been avoiding Cleave because that's already a feat, and you get it with all weapons; no one will spend a feat just to get it with one weapon.
I see what you're saying. Perhaps, subconsciously, that's why I went with a 25% chance to get a free Cleave-like hit, and this also stacks on top of Cleave. It's still worth it to take the feat and invenst in the exotic proficiency. The only problem with it is that an ability with a one-in-four chance for the feat to activate doesn't compare to other weapons that get a whole feat.
Not sure what to do with flails besides increase damage again...
Flails already get a bonus to disarm and they allow trip attacks. Martial and/or Exotic proficiencies could provide a bonus to those two maneuvers.
Daggers could get really cool. Martial dagger has increased range and is even easier to hide. Exotic dagger... can apply poison with no chance of poisoning yourself, and d6 damage?
I was thinking about daggers and was having a tough time coming up with ideas, but your hiding and poison ideas are great ideas.
Quarterstaff:
Simple: Two-Handed 1d6x2/1d6x2 Double, Monk
Martial: Two-Handed 1d6x2/1d6x2 Double, Monk, +1 Shield bonus to AC
Exotic: Two-Handed 1d8x2/1d8x2 Double, Monk, +2 Shield bonus to AC
Andostre had a similar thought as well -- I also agree this defensive approach would be a nice development for the quarterstaff. For the heavy club, I've got crits improving to x3 eventually... might be nice to get one end of the quarterstaff there as well. Maybe something like
QUARTERSTAFF
I know this treads on the actual TWD feat, and I'm not crazy about that aspect, but it fits so nicely I'm loathe to give up on it.
How about a bonus when already using Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, or using Total Defense? That way you get the image of a crafty quarterstaff wielder hanging back, blocking blow after blow, and then lashing out in a flurry of assaults with less of a mind for defense. And then it's not a feat. (Or perhaps if they already possess TWD or Combat Expertise, +1 bonus or something?)
Yeah, I like that a lot, especially because we can use the same type of thing for exotic rapier use, to simulate that super-swashbuckler guard thing you always see in the Errol Flynn movies.
I won't say I am 100% sold on this idea..but I like it. I have nothing to too exacting to add..yet..except on some level the net should be able to trip a foe..it was a real world use for it.
The fauchard is essentially a scythe blade on a long pole; similar in form to a guisarme. Paizo made it, IIRC, an exotic weapon that deals 1d10/18-20 (even though the scythe does 2d4/x4), and their guisarme is a martial weapon that deals 2d4/x3. Historically, a lot of these agriculturally-derived polearms were used by peasant militias (simple proficiency)... I propose the following:
GUISARME
The guisarme now includes fauchards, bill hooks, black bills, and the various other similar polearms derived from pruning hooks and/or scythe blades stuck on poles.
Alternatively, we could progress more towards the Paizo fauchard, using the following progression:
GUISARME
Thoughts?
You know, we've been doing something similar with unarmed strikes for YEARS but it never occurred to me to extend it to other weapons.
My plan was to do something similar.
UNARMED STRIKE
Along those lines, this system neatly subsumes feats like Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery. For example:
LIGHT CROSSBOW