Inquisitor / Rogue: How many rogue levels?


Advice

Sovereign Court

In a previous thread we discussed if picking up 2 levels of rogue (getting Evasion) was worth losing Stalwart (see Mettle) for a 12 level PFS build. I felt pretty confident that 2 levels of Rogue added more than I lost:

Pro:
Sneak Attack +1d6
Evasion
Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
Trapfinding (+1)
+1 Skill w/ wider class skill selection

Con (lost):
Stalwart
Greater Bane
Teamwork Feat (3 total instead of 4)
2 4th level spells (but still able to cast 1 + mod)

While some of the items I lost were pretty juicy, they were all end game items, and I wanted a boost early (4th or 5th level). More recently, though, I realized that the dip for 2 levels in rogue also costs me a point of BAB. This bothers me a bit more for some reason.

So the question I pose now is, "Is it worth it to just grab 4 levels of Rogue?"

The Comparison

Pro:
Full 3/4 BAB progression
Sneak Attack +2d6
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Rogue Talents (Trap Spotter, Weapon Focus)
Trapfinding (+2)
Trap Sense +1
+1 Skill w/ wider class skill selection

Con (lost):
Stalwart
Greater Bane
Teamwork Feat (2 total instead of 4)
Judgment (3/day rather than 4/)
4th level spell casting

So BAB increases, Saves stay the same, I become more accurate and damaging, but I can't cast 4th level spells and would be down a judgment in a 4 fight day.

Help me decide.


You want those spells and greater bane.

Let me repeat: You want those spells.

An inquisitor can easily have the highest to-hit in the entire party for minutes at a time. At your level with 4th level spells you could be rocking divine power, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, holy smite aka The Good Stuff. And those levels give you more caster levels, which admittedly I would not leave behind the 12th caster level because it bounces a lot of your bonuses up from 2 to 3.

Magic vestment on the shield. +3 enhance. On the armor. +3 enhance. Magic weapon, greater on your weapon if you need it. +3 enhance. Shield of faith for +4 deflection to AC. Who needs magical items again? You're up 9 AC and 3 enhance to attacks, and at 12th level, these spells are going to last all day.

Heroism for +2 morale to everything you do. Divine Power gives +4 luck to atk, dmg, +12 temp hitpoints and an extra full-bab attack. Greater invis makes enemies without special perception-related features flat-footed (there's 1d6 sneak attack on each swing for you) and gives you +2 to attack and full concealment. Since heroism lasts so long, you can easily win initiative with your massive inquisitor bonuses, cast greater invis or divine power without provoking, move up, and then full attack with bonuses. And it's even better on a surprise round, where you could have lookout and take a full round action to cast and move up before the round even really begins.

Or you could roll an extra d6 when you're flanking (or take the Precise Strikes teamwork feat for it and change it up when you feel like it and avoid two levels of rogue and -1 BAB), gain a bonus feat with a prereq of +1 BAB and a +1 to detect traps. ... I dunno. Are you really that scared of traps?

I don't know PFS, but the Inquisitor is one of the best classes in the game in self-buffed concentrated killing power right now, and is extremely rough and tumble. Use it. Harness the energy. And, If you ask me, Stalwart is not worth losing for Evasion, but that's just my opinion. The rest of this is scientific fact.

Sovereign Court

How much of the above changes if I tell you I am high Dex and since I finesse, I don't plan on using a shield?


The opportunity cost is too high, you would be giving up too much for Evasion, let alone four levels. Stalwart is much better than evasion, and Inquisitors don't lack for skills, so I'm not sure why Rogue is necessary. I agree with Ice Titan, stick with Inquisitor, it's a great class, and if you must multi-class, maximum of 2 levels to minimise damage.


RtrnofdMax wrote:
How much of the above changes if I tell you I am high Dex and since I finesse, I don't plan on using a shield?

I'll tell you that the way you're going is very similar to a finesse fighter, finesse barbarian or a finesse cleric-- Unless you're going that route for the RP idea you have of the character, I'd suggest against it, but only because of the MAD you'd have to face down to do it. You need Dex for more AC, and a 15 if you plan on dual-wielding, but I'd still have a 16 strength if possible. That makes buffs like Righteous Might and Bull's Strength (which you can't cast, but is nice to have someone else) much more effective since they give you bonus damage and bonus to-hit.

Also remember that going rogue doesn't have very many bonuses besides being able to disarm traps and having some nice skill points. You can't tumble in medium armor, but that should be a non-issue if you're 12th level and buy mithral. If you plan on wearing light armor instead, well, it may end up being a little rough for you. You'll basically be a rogue without the mobility skirmisher tricks and with decreased damage output.

A rogue at 12 rolls 6d6 sneak attacks, has improved uncanny dodge, improved evasion, slow reactions and crippling strike. You have judgments, but judgments don't make up what a rogue gets that you don't. Judgments just make you very versatile at adapting to unusual combat situations. They also make you a juggernaut.

Even without a shield, it's a 6 AC bonus versus a 4 AC bonus, but it's now a 6 enhancement bonus versus a 4 enhancement bonus for your weapons. Either way you stack it, going more rogue isn't helpful. At 12th level you have greater invisibility and 12 rounds of greater bane. As a 10/2 split, you don't have greater invisibility and you have 10 rounds of bane. Ask yourself if you want an extra +1d6 whenever you're flanking, without the ability to ignore being flanked in return when you're on the other side of enemy lines, without the ability to reliably avoid all area of effect attacks and without the ability to land a sneak attack and then full move away from a dangerous target to recuperate or the ability to land a full-attack action to give your flanked target 10 strength damage to make him a non-threat.

In conclusion... I would say yes to dual-wielding and no to finesse for finesse's sake. I would continue to say no to rogue levels-- greater bane gives you +4d6 on an attack, and solo-tactics Precise Strike gives you +1d6 when flanking anyways. Dual-wielding could double your damage output while finesse could easily lower it and make spells like Righteous Might very bad instead of good (with a +2 belt of dex or cat's grace so you don't lose TWF in the transition).

Analysis:

It's my opinion that the inquisitor works best as the party "tank" or main melee damage-dealer. Place himself in front of the bad guys, deal ridiculous damage, goad the enemies on to fight him. An inquisitor with hardly any magical gear can easily hit 38 AC and a +28 to hit at level 12. (For reference, An AC-focused fighter lies around 35 with a +4 dex, a +2 ring and amulet, +2 full plate and a +2 tower shield. A strength-focused fighter can get +23 to hit with a +3 greatsword. The inquisitor rolls 1d6+4d6+2d6+10/15-20, the fighter rolls 2d6+10. PA, Inq: +25 1d6+4d6+2d6+16/15-20(+1d6 if flanking), Fit: +19 2d6+22. Not saying that the inquisitor's heroism wouldn't do much better on the fighter, but just showing you what the classes can achieve in a vacuum.)


RtrnofdMax wrote:
How much of the above changes if I tell you I am high Dex and since I finesse, I don't plan on using a shield?

finesse is pretty doable with a shield, having the armor penalty on attack rolls is a non-issue with a mw light shield or a mithral shield.

Silver Crusade

Two level dip is worth it to get evasion. Four level dip is not worth it. Delaying entry in to your best Inquisitor powers even longer will hurt you. If you want 2 more levels to incress your BAB over all it should be at the end. It should be somthing more like Rogue 3 Inquisitor 16 ( and one level in a Full BAB class Barbarian and Fighter being the best choice of thows). Fighter gives you a bouns feet. Barbarian gives you Fast Movement. Personly i wold go with the Fast Movement at high level over the feet. all of this should be done after you get access to Stalwart, and 4th level spells.


calagnar wrote:
Two level dip is worth it to get evasion. Four level dip is not worth it. Delaying entry in to your best Inquisitor powers even longer will hurt you. If you want 2 more levels to incress your BAB over all it should be at the end. It should be somthing more like Rogue 3 Inquisitor 16 ( and one level in a Full BAB class Barbarian and Fighter being the best choice of thows). Fighter gives you a bouns feet. Barbarian gives you Fast Movement. Personly i wold go with the Fast Movement at high level over the feet. all of this should be done after you get access to Stalwart, and 4th level spells.

He's playing Pathfinder Society, so character levels are capped at level 12. While Evasion might be worth it in a level 20 build, giving up Stalwart and Greater Bane is too much.

Sovereign Court

But that's just the thing. I will get to play with Stalwart for one level of regular play and Greater Bane for the high level storylines only. Since I am high Dex and low Str, I am damage starved. I figured the rogue dips would help with that.


RtrnofdMax wrote:
But that's just the thing. I will get to play with Stalwart for one level of regular play and Greater Bane for the high level storylines only. Since I am high Dex and low Str, I am damage starved. I figured the rogue dips would help with that.

I get the feeling that you're more concerned about the damage output than anything else so Rogue looks better for you, however as others have suggested, the spells are a better option in the long run.


Not to mention that Inquisitors aren't really hurting for damage output. You get +3-6 to damage from your Judgment (and/or +3 to hit, which is much better, and something being a Rogue can't possibly replicate), +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage from having a bane weapon for whatever you're fighting on demand, free Teamwork feats without needing anyone else in the party to use them (and one of those feats gives you sneak attack), and that's not even mentioning spells, of which you get almost all of the best combat buffs plus things like invisibility.

Seriously, Inquisitor is probably the most well-rounded class in the game, and it has more damage output than anything but a full-BAB class.

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