A couple of questions about an Eldritch Knight, not optimized as such, but focused on rays. A human, with a starting dex of 18, and intelligence of 15 that winds up as a FTR 4/Wiz 6/EK 10, giving him a caster level of 15 and a BAB of 17.
His feats are: scribe scroll, weapon focus (ray), toughness, improved initiative, point blank shot, precise shot, quicken spell, empower spell, far shot, weapon specialization (ray), improved critical (ray), critical focus, sickening crucial, greater weapon focus (ray), tiring critical, greater weapon specialization (ray), critical mastery, exhausting critical. (and one unassigned feat).
What happens with weapon specialization (and GWS) on say a ray of enfeeblement, or point blank shot for that matter? Does that total add +4 to the strength damage? That would be huge, although since it's a penalty and not dmage I would assume this does not work.
What happens with these feats on a scorching ray targeted at 3 opponents? I assume bonus damage applies only once?
What happens with a scorching ray targeted at 3 opponents when the caster gets multiple criticals? Do the critical bonus effects apply to multiple opponents? In theory I could Exhaust and Sicken up to three targets per round (6 with a quickened ray). Rare, sure, but cool.
p.72-73 of the Complete Arcane explains weapon-like spells and eligible feats. These are:
Improved Critical
Improved Unarmed Strike
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Stunning Fist
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
It doesn't say whether WS is eligible, i guess that's up to your DM, i don't see any good reason not to, in fact it would synergise really well with your character concept.
Point Blank Shot does say that if the damage is ability damage or energy drain, then the +1 to damage does not apply, only to hit. If WS is good, then i'd apply the same restrictions.
cannot score critical hits. For example, ray of enfeeblement
requires a ranged touch attack roll, but since the target of the
spell takes a penalty to Strength (rather than Strength damage),
the spell cannot score a critical hit. Chill touch, on the other hand,
deals 1d6 points of damage and 1 point of Strength damage (not
a Strength penalty) unless the target makes a Fortitude saving
throw, and so would deal 2d6 points of damage plus 2 points
of Strength damage on a critical hit with a failed save.
round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells
(including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only
to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.
For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point
Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (two
rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing
4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals 6d6+1
points of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for
Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6
points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.
The critical damage (and effects) apply to the first target only, unfortunately. Otherwise, yeh, that's pretty scary.
You do not add feats that apply damage (as in, reducing the target's HP) to spells that do not deal HP damage. So none of those feats would apply to Ray of Enfeeblement. As you point out, damage is a different thing than a STR penalty.
You could use those feats with Scorching Ray or other damage-dealing spells.
A Scorching Ray targeted at 3 enemies requires 3 separate attack rolls and 3 separate damage rolls. The key words are "separate". Any one specific attack roll does not affect the outcome of any damage rolls other than the one damage roll against the same target, nor does it affect the outcome of the other attack rolls.
If you critical hit one enemy, then only the damage against that enemy is doubled; the other two enemies take normal damage if you merely hit them. If you critical hit more than one enemy, then you roll double damage (and only double damage) for each enemy against whom you rolled a critical hit; the remaining enemy(ies) take normal damage if you merely hit them.
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I am not sure you can take Greater Weapon Specialization with this character. That feat has a prerequisite of being a 12th level fighter.
You do not add feats that apply damage (as in, reducing the target's HP) to spells that do not deal HP damage. So none of those feats would apply to Ray of Enfeeblement. As you point out, damage is a different thing than a STR penalty.
EK levels stack with fighter levels for meeting "Fighter level X" prerequisites.
As for the latter point.. yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right on that. Though you can still double the ability damage if you crit (painful for some spells).
As for the latter point.. yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right on that. Though you can still double the ability damage if you crit (painful for some spells).
Especially with Imp Critical.
I am not sure you can take Greater Weapon Specialization with this character. That feat has a prerequisite of being a 12th level fighter.
You do not add feats that apply damage (as in, reducing the target's HP) to spells that do not deal HP damage. So none of those feats would apply to Ray of Enfeeblement. As you point out, damage is a different thing than a STR penalty.
EK levels stack with fighter levels for meeting "Fighter level X" prerequisites.
As for the latter point.. yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right on that. Though you can still double the ability damage if you crit (painful for some spells).
Aww crud, I thought they did, so I opened the book and looked to be sure and somehow skipped over it reading too fast. Thanks for the catch, I fixed the post.
Though you can still double the ability damage if you crit (painful for some spells).Especially with Imp Critical.
Are you guys sure you can crit with Ray of Enfeeblement?
Maybe I'm missing another thing here, but this is the quote I live by:
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't deal damage, so it cannot score a critical hit. Nor can any other non-damaging ray. Is there some other conflicting rule or exception that I am overlooking? (I suppose some non-damaging spell may have an explicit exception in the spell description, though I don't know of one - Ray of Enfeeblement does not).
That was covered in my spoiler, here's the relevant line bolded:
Actual damage as opposed to penalties::
Spells that require attack rolls but do not deal actual damage
cannot score critical hits. For example, ray of enfeeblement
requires a ranged touch attack roll, but since the target of the
spell takes a penalty to Strength (rather than Strength damage),
the spell cannot score a critical hit. Chill touch, on the other hand,
deals 1d6 points of damage and 1 point of Strength damage (not
a Strength penalty) unless the target makes a Fortitude saving
throw, and so would deal 2d6 points of damage plus 2 points
of Strength damage on a critical hit with a failed save.
It needs to do actual damage to crit.
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Ability drain and ability damage count as damage. Ray of enfeeblement can't crit because it's not called damage, it's called a penalty (and expires at the end of the spells duration, and can be dispelled, etc).
A touch of idiocy likewise cannot crit because it's also a penalty. However, chill touch does actual strength damage (1 point) and thus a critical would double that (2 points). Only a very limited list of spells will be able to "crit" with their ability damage because many apply a penalty rather than dealing damage. Something like a rogue's crippling strike could crit as well, and that critical would double the strength damage dealt.
IIRC in 3.5e negative levels also doubled on a critical. Not sure if there's any support for that in PF though.
So basically if it's damage, ability damage or ability drain it multiplies on a critical. Negative levels, not sure. Penalties to ability scores that aren't actually called "damage" or "drain" do not.
EDIT: I probably should have read Tanis' post first, as he covers most of what I did.
EDIT 2: Under the critical hits section of core (p184):
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain, the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
Good stuff - thanks all.
It would be a bit fun to shoot off a buch of potentially violent scorching rays with exhaust and sicken attached but, by the time you get to that point, there are many better things to do with spells.
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So, on that thought, what about the spell Poison:
Poison
School necromancy; Level cleric 4, druid 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack. This poison deals 1d3 Constitution damage per round for 6 rounds. Poisoned creatures can make a Fortitude save each round to negate the damage and end the affliction.
Here is the relevant text:
Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack. This poison deals 1d3 Constitution damage per round for 6 rounds. Poisoned creatures can make a Fortitude save each round to negate the damage and end the affliction.
What would a crit with this spell do? By the way it is written, this spell would then do 2d3 con damage per round for 6 rounds. Might sting a little.
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And fear any rogue with a Rod of Withering
A crit with that is 2d4 STR and 2d4 con, permanent ability drain.
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For the first case it can't crit because the spell's effect isn't the damage, it's the poison which in turn causes the damage.
For the second case I would rule no because it has its own specific effect on a critical. That said, by RAW the crit from that weapon would do 2d4 str and con drain. Very brutal indeed. I would fear the lvl 20 fighter with a beefed up version of the weapon and weapon mastery. Especially if dual-wielding. Even their last attack would almost be auto-hit, thanks to only needing touch, and would deal 3d4 on a crit rather than 2d4.
For the first case it can't crit because the spell's effect isn't the damage, it's the poison which in turn causes the damage.
For the second case I would rule no because it has its own specific effect on a critical. That said, by RAW the crit from that weapon would do 2d4 str and con drain. Very brutal indeed. I would fear the lvl 20 fighter with a beefed up version of the weapon and weapon mastery. Especially if dual-wielding. Even their last attack would almost be auto-hit, thanks to only needing touch, and would deal 3d4 on a crit rather than 2d4.
I'd fear the rod of withering more if the Fort save were higher. Luckily, it's not too bad. Still, nasty combo.
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I'd fear the rod of withering more if the Fort save were higher. Luckily, it's not too bad. Still, nasty combo.For the first case it can't crit because the spell's effect isn't the damage, it's the poison which in turn causes the damage.
For the second case I would rule no because it has its own specific effect on a critical. That said, by RAW the crit from that weapon would do 2d4 str and con drain. Very brutal indeed. I would fear the lvl 20 fighter with a beefed up version of the weapon and weapon mastery. Especially if dual-wielding. Even their last attack would almost be auto-hit, thanks to only needing touch, and would deal 3d4 on a crit rather than 2d4.
Well, fail that first fort save and the rest do become harder.. :P
Does the critical really apply to all spells that do damage? I only saw it under the rays section. I don't think it counts for anything else other than rays. Which in turn would make sense, because a lot of the examples you guys have given would be uber overpowered on crits.
Does the critical really apply to all spells that do damage? I only saw it under the rays section. I don't think it counts for anything else other than rays. Which in turn would make sense, because a lot of the examples you guys have given would be uber overpowered on crits.
It is for all spells that both require an attack roll to hit and deals damage.
Does the critical really apply to all spells that do damage? I only saw it under the rays section. I don't think it counts for anything else other than rays. Which in turn would make sense, because a lot of the examples you guys have given would be uber overpowered on crits.It is for all spells that both require an attack roll to hit and deals damage.
Oops my bad, I found it on pg 184 of the Core Rulebook ><; well, since this is what Paizo ruled I might as well capitalize on it.