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Perhaps I'm missing something but my Bard isn't a Bard. Well more specifically NOT a Bard I want to play.
I have a 1/2-Elf in a Pathfinder Game that I wanted to transfer to a 4e game I'm playing in as the PF game is on hold while the DM is away. But I really like my Bard - one RPG is as good as another I say so it made sense to make a 4e version. My Bard is a non-combatant in PF, doesn't have offensive spells and is stock standard with a sword. In short fighting is the last resort and best left for others when it does happen.
My problem is I can't help but take "combat" orientated powers in 4e. I guess this is the first time I have tried to make what I call non-combat focused character in 4e (previous: Druid, Warden, Paladin, Sorcerer). Is there anyway I can stay true to my Bard's original character concept?
A little disappointed,
S.
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In 4th edition the only way you'll really be able to stick to your concept is to simply sit out of combats, since they're pretty much all the rules deal with. Any sort of "buff" powers are few and far between or directly involve you hurting things.
There isn't really a conversion between the two systems, just like you can't really go from 3.5 D&D to 4th edition.
Building the bard from the way you want it will obviously be difficult at the very least. All classes in the game get attack powers and almost all of them require you to attack and damage an enemy. Utility powers are pretty easy I think, but the attack powers are harder to mesh with that goal.
From the first level lists I have these few suggestions for power choices.
Misdirected Mark, it is an explosion spell, but if your party has a "typical," it should feel like a buff to the party when they gain more control over an enemy because of your attack.
Blunder (Even though it deals damage, I think it feels more like a 'leave it for the party to deal with him' ability), Fast Friends (no damage, just straight beguilement sort of like 3.5 fascinate).
Stirring Shout (damaging, but at least avoids defaulting to the blade. I would suggest that you/the GM don't describe the psychic damage as like any other damage. Don't leave him wounded or dead by the magic, just disheartened by you buffing your allies as they charge toward him. The power's healing magic doesn't even care if the enemy is affected by your shout even, so it doesn't really make you feel like you need to hit him for your buff magic to work.)
After this I started having a bit more trouble just finding stuff I wanted to pick at on here, but there are a few throughout the levels that I would also suggest.
There are powers like Increasing the Tempo (which is a 19th level daily power that "just" lets an ally take four attacks as a free action, but those seem to be rare. It is very very hard to take all your powers such that they just aid allies rather than harm enemies.
My shorter suggestion for this is to try picking powers that you can describe as not being a direct attack (even if they still require attack rolls) and powers that (although they damage an enemy) are more about forcing your allies to clean up the enemies (by giving them free attacks, putting them in better positions around the target, etc).
Try a Warlord or Cleric multiclass with Bard or a Hybrid. Both classes have builds and powers that focus on helping allies/setting up attacks.
Perhaps I'm missing something but my Bard isn't a Bard. Well more specifically NOT a Bard I want to play.
I have a 1/2-Elf in a Pathfinder Game that I wanted to transfer to a 4e game I'm playing in as the PF game is on hold while the DM is away. But I really like my Bard - one RPG is as good as another I say so it made sense to make a 4e version. My Bard is a non-combatant in PF, doesn't have offensive spells and is stock standard with a sword. In short fighting is the last resort and best left for others when it does happen.
My problem is I can't help but take "combat" orientated powers in 4e. I guess this is the first time I have tried to make what I call non-combat focused character in 4e (previous: Druid, Warden, Paladin, Sorcerer). Is there anyway I can stay true to my Bard's original character concept?
A little disappointed,
S.
I've been playing a bard in 4E and I've had the same experience (now I wish that he'd been a rogue).
If one isn't into combat (most RPG's will have SOME), then 4E is probably not a good choice.good luck,
GRU
I think clerics and bards are some of the most difficult characters to translate over from 3.5 because many their 3.5 abilities are what 4E would call utility powers. That said, I think 4E makes it very easy to create your own powers from scratch. Perhaps you could talk with your DM about trying to create custom powers for the bard class that are more like inspiring refrain. Something to think about.
I would suggest looking at non-combat feats, like jack of all trades (or whatever it is called) to boost all skills. You also have to take a look at bard powers, and translate to how you envision the character, i.e. take out the power flavor text. For example, granting bonus temporary hit points can be equated to singing to boost morale. But at a closer look, the big difference is bard spells, and any 3.5 spell will not have a happy tranlation to 4E. There are rituals, which are non-combat, so take a look at those.
As to combat or non-combat scenarios (encounters) that is up to the DM to control.
So what non-combat items are missing?
I don't have the books in front of me, but you may want to multiclass into a pacifist cleric as featured in the Divine Power book - this cleric's main abilities in combat are healing and other boosts to your allies. You'll have most of your bard abilities, but you'll be able to replace some of your more combat oriented powers with pacifist powers. Flavor wise, you don't necessarily have to call the cleric powers prayers, but just more inspiration caused by your bard's musical abilities. Just an idea.
I think what you'll need to do is adjust your thinking. Sure your powers do damage, but since everyone else's does too, so what? The important thing to remember is your character's focus. Yeah you have combat powers, but have you optimized your character to be good at it? Or have you selected your stats & feats to focus on the non-combat aspects of your character?
You'll note when you look at the Bard's powers, they all have extra things they do beyond the damage. So, pick the powers based on those aspects and totally ignore how much damage they do. Heck, pick the powers based on the flavor text that seems to fit the personality & predilections of your character.
Also, don't overlook Multi-class Versatility. It lets you take multiple multi-class feats, so you can pick up additional skills & powers, so see what might be of interest for your character there.
I guess ultimately, what I'm saying is there's a big difference between having combat powers & being good in combat. Play up that difference in any way you can.
Perhaps I'm missing something but my Bard isn't a Bard. Well more specifically NOT a Bard I want to play.
I have a 1/2-Elf in a Pathfinder Game that I wanted to transfer to a 4e game I'm playing in as the PF game is on hold while the DM is away. But I really like my Bard - one RPG is as good as another I say so it made sense to make a 4e version. My Bard is a non-combatant in PF, doesn't have offensive spells and is stock standard with a sword. In short fighting is the last resort and best left for others when it does happen.
My problem is I can't help but take "combat" orientated powers in 4e. I guess this is the first time I have tried to make what I call non-combat focused character in 4e (previous: Druid, Warden, Paladin, Sorcerer). Is there anyway I can stay true to my Bard's original character concept?
A little disappointed,
S.
I've found that when attempting to recreate a character in 4e, you shouldn't start with what that character's old class was, but what you want to do with that character. Since the roles of Bards have changed a bit between editions (and Pathfinder), you may not wish to go with a direct conversion. Also remember that reflavoring of powers (and even classes) can be a great boon when you're trying to realize a character concept.
Using what you've stated, here is my attempt at a 4e "Bard" character that might fit your idea: (you didn't state a level so I stopped at 4)
Half-Elf, Bard|Cleric
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Will
Hybrid Talent: Song of Rest
Background: Human - Ancestral Holdings (+2 to Diplomacy)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 19.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 16.
AC: 18 Fort: 14 Reflex: 13 Will: 18
HP: 41 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 10
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +8, Streetwise +11, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +15
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +7, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +7, Heal +9, History +7, Insight +11, Intimidate +10, Nature +9, Perception +9, Stealth +5, Thievery +5, Athletics +4
FEATS
Level 1: Bard of All Trades
Level 2: Group Insight
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
POWERS
Dilettante: Direct the Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Staggering Note
Hybrid at-will 1: Astral Seal
Hybrid encounter 1: Fast Friends
Hybrid daily 1: Font of Tears
Hybrid utility 2: Canon of Avoidance
Hybrid encounter 3: Hymn of Resurgence
ITEMS
Chainmail, Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Wand Implement
His feats are dedicated to increasing skill checks, and boosting the party (through song).
All of his "attacks" can all be reflavored as songs or performance which hinder enemies and boost allies, and all but one of them deal no damage. His at-wills do little or no damage; Astral Seal only reduces enemy defenses and grants healing, while Staggering Note does do a small amount of damage (but only charisma modifier) and is more about distracting an enemy to allow an ally an opening to attack.
Both of his encounter powers are song flavored (even the cleric power!) where Fast Friends charms an enemy into inaction, and Hymn of Resurgence reduces enemies defenses and grants temporary HP to allies.
With this build there were actually several dallies to choose from that could fit this concept pretty well. While Font of Tears can be flavored as a song that dazes enemies and reduces that attacks of all enemies around you, Beacon of Hope, Curse of Misfortune, and Moment of Glory could all be used instead.
Finally, utility powers will probably be the easiest part of this character. I selected Canon of Avoidance, a song that shields allies, but its really hard to make a bad choice here.
I went with a hybrid Bard/Cleric because the cleric has the most access to non-damaging powers, but there are probably several other concepts that could also work.
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So what non-combat items are missing?
To put in context;
PF Bard = 1st level (close to 2nd before our DM went on holiday)
CHA and Knowledge skills (specifically Local and Nobility)
0-level spells
*Mending - repaired a plough for a farmer (same one with the cow - see below.)
*Lullaby
*Mage Hand
*Ghost Sound
1st-level spells
*Cure light wounds - so far only cast on a farmers cow that was attacked by a wolf... :)
*Silent Image
My first Bard I have ever made up (full stop) and it was really funny to play under PF (the DM is a Vampire player from way back and she likes story over combat by a large ratio - in fact we aren't allowed to openly carry weapons in the city the adventure is taking place in due to the laws of the land). I had a ball using my 0-level spells (effectively At-Wills I guess).
I thank everyone for the suggestions, but, again they are all functions of "in combat" and many (all?) have no use unless someone in the party is bashing something over the head.
What I'm discovering is "points of light" is all about finding the darkness, punching it on the nose and taking it's stuff. This isn't very different from previous D&D for sure, but I do believe that the mechanics of 4e form a little more of a straight jacket that directs PC's to be not really build-able for any other purpose. These are my preconceptions of course, when playing my Warforged Warden I have no such concerns about 4e because he is ALL about the nose punching. 4e is a great game that works well but this was in exchange for the loss of a little character flexibility I think.
While true rituals can achieve "spell-like" effects due to everyone in principle having access to them they reduce the feeling of "classes" which is still the core of D&D. Other than the not needed to pay some cash, nothing is uniquely "Bard".
But I think the real problem is as someone posted a Bard doesn't equal a Bard - if you get my meaning. The 4e Bard just isn't what my minds eye sees a Bard as being - however Warden/Paladin does for example. Actually come to think about it, the same philosophical reason I wouldn't ever play a Wizard in 4e, but have no problems conceptualising a Sorcerer.
Cheers again,
Stefan.
Ya for what you want the gnome is a better choice since can have ghost sound, fade away, and some extras like mage hand and prestidigation. Add the rituals like glib limerick, tavelers chant, wizard curtain, and it is more rounded. You could even add in a wizard multi-class, or hybrid.
From a skills standpoint, you have to look as each description as each is condensed.
But anyone expecting a translation from 3.5 to 4E will not find a direct match.
There are even at-wills as a bard (leader class) that will let you control the battle field and let others attack as you survey the surroundings, but you definitely have to accept 4E on its own merits as I did.
4E is a completely different game, the sooner people embrace that, the more they can enjoy it for what it is. Maybe someone will know how to make a cleaner conversion, I only own the core.
To put in context;PF Bard = 1st level (close to 2nd before our DM went on holiday)
CHA and Knowledge skills (specifically Local and Nobility)
0-level spells
*Mending - repaired a plough for a farmer (same one with the cow - see below.)
*Lullaby
*Mage Hand
*Ghost Sound1st-level spells
*Cure light wounds - so far only cast on a farmers cow that was attacked by a wolf... :)
*Silent ImageMy first Bard I have ever made up (full stop) and it was really funny to play under PF (the DM is a Vampire player from way back and she likes story over combat by a large ratio - in fact we aren't allowed to openly carry weapons in the city the adventure is taking place in due to the laws of the land). I had a ball using my 0-level spells (effectively At-Wills I guess).
Now that I see what you want to try to replicate, here is another take on your Bard:
Half-Elf, Bard|Wizard
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Will
Hybrid Talent: Words of Friendship
Background: Human - Ancestral Holdings (+2 to Diplomacy)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 18.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 16.
AC: 14 Fort: 13 Reflex: 14 Will: 17
HP: 33 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 8
TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +14, Bluff +10, Streetwise +10, Arcana +9
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Dungeoneering +3, Endurance +4, Heal +3, History +5, Insight +5, Intimidate +6, Nature +3, Perception +3, Religion +5, Stealth +2, Thievery +2, Athletics +1
FEATS
Level 1: Ritual Caster
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
POWERS
Dilettante: Direct the Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Staggering Note
Hybrid at-will 1: Magic Missile
Hybrid encounter 1: Fast Friends
Hybrid daily 1: Sleep
Hybrid utility 2: Canon of Avoidance
Hybrid encounter 3: Hypnotic Pattern
ITEMS
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing), Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Wand Implement
RITUALS
Make Whole, Glib Limerick, Traveler's Chant, Lullaby, Unseen Servant, Hallucinatory Item
0-level spells
*Mending -> Make Whole (ritual)
*Lullaby -> Lullaby (ritual)
*Mage Hand -> Mage Hand
*Ghost Sound -> Ghost Sound
also
- Prestidigitation
- Light
- Glib Limerick (bard ritual) (optional)
- Traveler's Chant (bard ritual) (optional)
- Unseen Servant (ritual) (optional)
1st-level spells
*Cure light wounds -> Majestic Word
*Silent Image - I couldn't think of a direct conversion for this one. You can use Prestidigitation to make a small illusion for a short time. There are also some encounter Wizard or Bard powers you might reflavor to have a similar effect, but your best bet would be the 5th level ritual Hallucinatory Item which is basically the same spell as Silent Image (but requires you be 5th level to learn).
I went with a Hybrid Wizard simply to gain the cantrips to fit your character, but a Pathfinder Bard is a little bit wizard anyway (as mentioned above you could also get these cantrips by playing a gnome + a feat). Also, all of the choices made to match your previous Bard's powers were either rituals or class features, so you are free to take (or not take if you prefer) any at-will/encounter/daily/utility powers of your choosing.
If you feel I left something out, or you are looking for something different, please let me know.
Rituals.
Rituals rituals rituals rituals.
99% of utility magic is done through rituals.
Bards get rituals.
While true rituals can achieve "spell-like" effects due to everyone in principle having access to them they reduce the feeling of "classes" which is still the core of D&D. Other than the not needed to pay some cash, nothing is uniquely "Bard".
There are, I believe, rituals that are purely meant for bards.
And frankly rituals being open for everyone is a good thing. It doesn't reduce the feeling of classes, it just lets people who aren't wizards do cool things.
To put in context;
PF Bard = 1st level (close to 2nd before our DM went on holiday)
CHA and Knowledge skills (specifically Local and Nobility)
0-level spells
*Mending - repaired a plough for a farmer (same one with the cow - see below.)
*Lullaby
*Mage Hand
*Ghost Sound1st-level spells
*Cure light wounds - so far only cast on a farmers cow that was attacked by a wolf... :)
*Silent ImageMy first Bard I have ever made up (full stop) and it was really funny to play under PF (the DM is a Vampire player from way back and she likes story over combat by a large ratio - in fact we aren't allowed to openly carry weapons in the city the adventure is taking place in due to the laws of the land). I had a ball using my 0-level spells (effectively At-Wills I guess).
I think what your looking for violates several major philosophical tenets of 4E. You can't see it because your looking at a 1st level Bard and you've played with it and it seems fine.
If you statted your bard up to 10th we'd be able to hone in on what the real issues are. Fundamentally they come down to:
1) Your not allowed to have to much that trumps the skill system. You can have stuff that interact with it but not negate it. The skill system remains the way in which you interact with the world around you, especially out of combat, be that NPCs or avalanches pretty much from level 1 to level at least 20 and in part even to level 30.
2) A class can always operate both within and outside of combat. You tilt this axis with feats creating either a character that is particularly good in one environment or the other but you can't get it to heavily in one direction or the other.
3) No class is, by its nature, better then other classes at operating either inside combat or out of combat, specifically the bard can't be, by its nature, a better 'face' for the party then the fighter or cleric.
4) Until the highest of levels you can't have abilities that that subvert the adventure. If its a 12th level murder mystery you can't have abilities that quickly and easily solve the crime. If your on trial for betraying the king (it was a frame) you can't just take over the court room.
Hence one could argue that the game is made for combat but I think you might find that the reality at the table is that its often easier to make non-combat adventures at higher levels in this system. I tried making a 10th level political intrigue adventure in my last 3.5 campaign and it fell completely apart, the wizard did not want to go and talk with NPCs, spells where a better more exacting way to get the info he needed. The Paladin was the parties face - no one else really could do anything but play charades as his side kick, they got board of that after a single session.
In another case I wanted to keep whether or not a Princess was alive or dead a secret and, after extensive research into the divination school basically built a demi-plane and then made up rules (which amounted to all your divinations don't work) in order to keep my roughly 11th level players from just answering the question with magic.
Hence you comment that the system is designed to keep the players in combat but I think you'd find that its actually easier to make a none combat adventure under these circumstances simply because the players are so limited in their ability to influence other peoples minds, are forced, much of the time, to just walk or ride wherever they want to go and and can't just use magic to find out the answers.
Even the limited attempts I made to play outside of combat in 3.5 were problematic and they involved many hours of hard core study of the spells so that I could figure out all the things my players might do and have an answer. I'd hate to be a less experience DM and trying to do this. I was at least aware of the fact that magic is the trump card from earlier editions.
They've made some attempts here and there, between skills, feats, rituals, utility powers, and backgrounds. You can get a lot of mileage out of those, especially if DM and players are on the same page. But it is somewhat scattered and haphazard, rather than being a unified secondary system.
Now this I agree with. I generally like the direction they where headed with in 4E, where they decided that once they where killing sacred cows they had a pretty good idea which cows to kill and why. However there was not that much of a concerted effort to go in and add flavour elements to replace the corpses of the cows.
That said I think this is an easy thing to say but harder to implement. I don't know how I'd actually go about doing it and not create a system that potentially subverts the skill system. I mean its already possible to strain the skill system pretty bad with what we have. If I'm giving out even more mechanical benefits based on backgrounds it might not be too ling before I just bust it...and then I find that in return for flavour I get a core mechanic that just does not work, not a good trade.
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Now that I see what you want to try to replicate, here is another take on your Bard:
I like it. I have made a 1st level version but discussed the 3rd level version you have presented to show him where I am going with this. I actually think that given the 4e DM and his massive difference from the PF DM (he likes stabby bits in an adventure, she likes dialogue) that the way 4e "almost forces" (guns down please gentlemen) you to have a combat ready character I have fun with the character knowing that when I need to I can contribute during a physical encounter.
Thanks for spending the time to help me out here.
Cheers,
S.
PS: To everyone else. Thanks for your insights, it was at seeing the "powers" as defining the PC like you would the class abilities of older D&D that made it tricky to see how I could make a "non-combatant" under 4e. Again, the perspectives of others can help you understand the obvious - if you get my meaning. Cheers all.
Now that I see what you want to try to replicate, here is another take on your Bard:I like it. I have made a 1st level version but discussed the 3rd level version you have presented to show him where I am going with this. I actually think that given the 4e DM and his massive difference from the PF DM (he likes stabby bits in an adventure, she likes dialogue) that the way 4e "almost forces" (guns down please gentlemen) you to have a combat ready character I have fun with the character knowing that when I need to I can contribute during a physical encounter.
Your correct, of course, in that 4E forces you to have a combat capable character. It does not, however, force your DM to design a combat heavy adventure. I've never seen it but it would definitely be interesting to see how a parties characters turned out if the adventures where combat light. My suspicion is you'd see a fair number of feats plowed into skill training and skill focus because you get a lot of bang for you feat in this area if the adventure is asking players to make a lot of skill checks.
If my main group ever finish playing the Scales of War Campaign it'll be my turn to DM again and I plan on doing city based murder mysteries for the first 6 levels or so before expanding the campaign out by having a kind of epic mystery that has the players following the path of an individual who's of great interest but for whom the first clues date back hundreds of years. So they kind of follow the path he has taken over hundreds of years that chart what will ultimately be the BBEGs path from birth to working for good to his slow fall to evil and then his actions to gather power and become a BBEG head of the cliche super evil organization trying to take over the world.
Of course his path to power will take them through dungeons and lost jungles etc. so later in the campaign they will need those combat skills though there will still be many examples of using skills and such to ferret out 'what did our Evil Overlord actually want from this local - why was he here and what did he do?'.
I honestly never saw "I can make a character who's absolutely worthless in combat" as a system's strength :\
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I honestly never saw "I can make a character who's absolutely worthless in combat" as a system's strength :\
Really depends on the DM/game. I was more talking the flexibility to develop a character concept, well a concept other than other than "I bash things" <insert variations on a theme for class A/B/C etc here>. I have a large number of insane Call of Cthulhu characters that attest to fact that being worthless in combat saved their lives - unfortunately not their sanity... But the combat PC's invariably ended up dead so I still count insanity as a win :)
@Jeremy. I like to adventure idea, very cool. It's surprisingly refreshing to not have the same old, same old - meaning kill things and take their stuff - as the central theme for a game/campaign. Marie's PF game curbed our natural "bash things to solve a problem" by using a city based adventure where the laws were actually upheld and killing someone = murder = significant goal time = roll a new PC.
S.
I honestly never saw "I can make a character who's absolutely worthless in combat" as a system's strength :\Really depends on the DM/game.
Some people need to just learn to play one of the LARGE NUMBER of story-telling systems and not try to play combat oriented games and complain they can't not be a combatant.
K, one way to go would be to take the Enchantment wizard powers from Heroes of the Fallen Lands. They're attack powers but instead of dealing straight damage, they daze your enemy, make them attack their allies, and you can control them for a time. Sure, it's not apart of the rules (unless you Multi-class) but it could work well with a Bard. Just change the powers to Charisma and there ya go.
Another would be to take powers that have more buff/de-buff effects and deal little damage. And grab as many Charisma-based Rituals and Utility spells as possible.
And honestly, the Bard is one of the better classes of 4E, espically for straight up versatility. The fact that it's Charisma based meshes well for the loads of other Charisma based classes (Paladin, Sorcerer, and Ardent). Though to be truthful, 4E is not the best system to try to make non-combative character (ie, doesn't want to make attack rolls or attacks in general). I know in 3.5/PF the bard can just sit around and play their music, but they expect you to contribute to combat in 4E.