One of my players expressed interest in playing an Eldritch Knight. Unfortunately, the class is considered utterly rubbish by everyone in the local group, every group the local group has come into contact with, and all their relations, pets and coworkers.
Simply put, it's useless.
So to make the dull and self-defeating class more interesting, I have conjured the following alterations. Let me know what you think. Too much? Too little? Too weird?
Eldritch Knight
The following are in addition to the core rules of the eldritch knight:
Eldritch Armor: At 2nd level, if an eldritch knight has arcane armor training or arcane armor mastery, he may use those feats as a free action once per round.
Spell Strike: At 3rd level, an eldritch knight may use a standard action to make a single attack at his full base attack bonus. As part of the attack, he may sacrifice a spell to empower the attack. For each level of the spell sacrificed, the attack deals an additional 1d6 damage and is counted as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. This additional damage is not multiplied by a critical hit. The maximum level of spell that can be sacrificed to use spell strike is equal to the eldritch knight’s level, to a maximum of 9th at 9th level.
Eldritch Strike: At 4th level, if an eldritch knight has arcane strike, he may use it as a free action once per round.
Elemental Strike: At 6th level, if the spell sacrificed to use spell strike has the acid, cold, electricity or fire descriptor, the additional damage dealt by the attack is energy damage of the same type.
Alignment Strike: At 8th level, if the spell sacrificed to use spell strike has the chaotic, evil, good or lawful descriptor, the attack counts as that alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
The spell critical requires a free action instead of a swift action and may be used once per round, even if more than one critical hit is confirmed.
Eldritch Armor: At 2nd level, if an eldritch knight has arcane armor training or arcane armor mastery, he may use those feats as a free action once per round.
Perhaps add arcane armor training and arcane armor master to the list of prerequisites (they seem to be feat taxes already) to qualify. Then give this ability at 1st level.
I thought about that, but decided not to in case someone wants to play a more wizardly eldritch knight that doesn't wear armour, perhaps relying on mage armour or other protections instead.
Maybe give the Eldritch Knight "Eldritch Talents" that he can select at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10. These can be used to emphasize the different aspects of the eldritch knight (casting in armor, arcane strike, using spells to boost weapon damage, reliance on spells with attack rolls, emphasis on "spells as armor," etc. etc.
That leaves levels 3 and 7 empty. I propose a Sudden Metamagic ability, where the Eldritch Knight can use a metamagic feat once per day (twice at 7th) without increasing the level of the spell slot used to cast the altered spell. This can be used as a virtual Quick Cast from the duskblade class, or the other Sudden Metamagic Feats the warmage gets.
why not just make him play the spellsword from complete warior from 3.5?
Because I don't have any 3.5 books and I don't know what the spellsword entails except in vague terms.
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Try this version of the Spellsword. I let a player use it and it seemed to work pretty well for him, and seemed balanced compared to the rest of the group (wizard, sorcerer, updated artificer, and inquisitor).
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Try this version of the Spellsword. I let a player use it and it seemed to work pretty well for him, and seemed balanced compared to the rest of the group (wizard, sorcerer, updated artificer, and inquisitor).
That version is a 3 level dip class. Fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 3/EK 10. If you take all 10 levels of it, the arcane armour mastery becomes moot as your not gonna have 40% ASF anyways as a fighter/mage. At most, your looking at 30% for mithril full plate + wooden small shield...so one of the feats you gets becomes useless. Also your going to lose at least 4 CL doing all 10 levels for a spell channel that pales to the 3.5 version...and the 3.5 version wasn't worth it. However with just a 3 levels dip, you can get some minor spell channeling at a modest 3 CL lose...which is what you lose with the classic EK build anyways.
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One of my players expressed interest in playing an Eldritch Knight. Unfortunately, the class is considered utterly rubbish by everyone in the local group, every group the local group has come into contact with, and all their relations, pets and coworkers.
Simply put, it's useless.
So to make the dull and self-defeating class more interesting, I have conjured the following alterations. Let me know what you think. Too much? Too little? Too weird?
(stuff)
Rather than solder new class abilities onto the EK advancement table, I would either (a) create a new prestige class with these abilities and reduced spell advancement, or (b) make these feats with EK levels as prerequisites (not pretty, but it works).
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Rather than solder new class abilities onto the EK advancement table, I would either (a) create a new prestige class with these abilities and reduced spell advancement, or (b) make these feats with EK levels as prerequisites (not pretty, but it works).One of my players expressed interest in playing an Eldritch Knight. Unfortunately, the class is considered utterly rubbish by everyone in the local group, every group the local group has come into contact with, and all their relations, pets and coworkers.
Simply put, it's useless.
So to make the dull and self-defeating class more interesting, I have conjured the following alterations. Let me know what you think. Too much? Too little? Too weird?
(stuff)
Your assuming the EK is balanced and not an underpowered filler class...because as written, that's what that class is. Although I think elemental strike and alighned strike is a bit much, the other stuff is pretty much what a fighter/mage PrC SHOULD have.
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Your assuming the EK is balanced and not an underpowered filler class...because as written, that's what that class is. Although I think elemental strike and alighned strike is a bit much, the other stuff is pretty much what a fighter/mage PrC SHOULD have.
Full BAB, d10 HD and (almost) full spell advancement does not seem underpowered to me.
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Your assuming the EK is balanced and not an underpowered filler class...because as written, that's what that class is. Although I think elemental strike and alighned strike is a bit much, the other stuff is pretty much what a fighter/mage PrC SHOULD have.Full BAB, d10 HD and (almost) full spell advancement does not seem underpowered to me.
With no real class abilities, yes it is...and everything you mentioned does not raise it above a filler class.
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With no real class abilities, yes it is...and everything you mentioned does not raise it above a filler class.Are you arguing lack of power or lack of flavor? The two aren't the same thing.
It's a lack of power...with the entry req the way it is, the extra BAB nets you not very much as your gonna be playing like a straight wizard mostly anyways. Getting good fort over good will spreads your saves and actually make it worse as you end up with no good saves. The only thing you really get is extra HP. Without class abilities to make that level of fighter and losing 2-3 CL do something, the class is rather worthless.
Right now I don't think my modifications add much raw power to the eldritch knight. They add a fix and flavour. They do two things:
1. Eldritch strike, eldritch armour and the capstone tweak make the class usable. I'd say the class does okay with just those. Without these, the eldritch knight is working against itself, with only one swift action between many different things.
2. Spell strike gives the eldritch knight something different and unique of its own, to stand out as flavour. As a primary damage dealing mechanism, it's probably not very good compared to a fighter's fighting or a pure wizard's casting, but it should be fun and not a bad choice to use at opportune moments. Elemental and alignment strike give it a few moments to shine, as I don't think the class should have to be sub-par all of the time, every time.
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It's a lack of power...with the entry req the way it is, the extra BAB nets you not very much as your gonna be playing like a straight wizard mostly anyways.
Ah! I think I see the problem. Playing an EK as a "straight wizard mostly" is a path to frustration.
This is a stab-ya-cadabra class, which is why the Diverse Training class ability is so valuable, allowing the EK to dip into the Weapon Specialization feat tree.
Getting good fort over good will spreads your saves and actually make it worse as you end up with no good saves. The only thing you really get is extra HP.
Agreed, to the extent that the saving throw advancement system breaks down badly when multiclassing is in play. Affects all multiclassed warrior/casters and is not fixable, unfortunately.
Without class abilities to make that level of fighter and losing 2-3 CL do something, the class is rather worthless.
Diverse Training is very cool, IMHO. Not completely sold on Spell Critical -- seems situationally useful to me. I'm envisioning an alternate class feature that would let a Ftr1/Sor6/EK10 trade Spell Critical for the 15th level sorcerer bloodline power.
A core eldritch knight cannot actually use its capstone. It prevents itself from using it, in most cases.
If you use arcane strike, your capstone never happens.
If you use arcane armour training, your capstone never happens..
If you need arcane armour training and don't use it, your capstone suffers spell failure.
If you use a quickened spell, your capstone never happens.
If you need arcane armour training and don't use it, you can use a quickened spell that suffers spell failure and your capstone never happens.
It might as well not be there.
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A core eldritch knight cannot actually use its capstone. It prevents itself from using it, in most cases.
If you use arcane strike, your capstone never happens.
That's fair. One magical swift action per round per customer.
If you use arcane armour training, your capstone never happens..
If you need arcane armour training and don't use it, your capstone suffers spell failure.
That's bad.
If you use a quickened spell, your capstone never happens.
If you need arcane armour training and don't use it, you can use a quickened spell that suffers spell failure and your capstone never happens.
It might as well not be there.
The arcane armor training/mastery issue is quite unfortunate, and is a very good reason to house-rule those feats to be always on -- but it's still a rule zero violation (just because you can houserule around a broken rule doesn't mean the rule is not broken).
A core eldritch knight cannot actually use its capstone. It prevents itself from using it, in most cases.
If you use arcane strike, your capstone never happens.
That's fair. One magical swift action per round per customer.
The problem remains where you make the decision: Do you use your arcane strike to get a reliable maybe +3 damage to your attacks, or do not use it and hope for a crit?
That decision is the problem. You cannot know at the time of using your ability whether it will be a wasted swift action.
If you had the ability to activate arcane strike on a hit after rolling to hit, then maybe it would be less bad.
Also my bad. About arcane armour training, I forgot to notice that if you're using it to cast a spell without failure, you won't likely be making a weapon attack in the same round unless it's an AoO.
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The arcane armor training/mastery issue is quite unfortunate, and is a very good reason to house-rule those feats to be always on -- but it's still a rule zero violation (just because you can houserule around a broken rule doesn't mean the rule is not broken).If you use a quickened spell, your capstone never happens.
If you need arcane armour training and don't use it, you can use a quickened spell that suffers spell failure and your capstone never happens.
It might as well not be there.
Umm other then the channeling ability (which as it limits to only one attack AND you need to spend spells to do it will generally be not a very good use of resources. So I'm okay with that as a flavor ability. Other then the elemental and aligned strike, the rest basically amounts you your houserule so I fail to see why the addition that UR suggest is considered a bad thing to you? Because it seems like even you do agree that EK as written has some rather sever issues that gets houseruled a lot.
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Umm other then the channeling ability (which as it limits to only one attack AND you need to spend spells to do it will generally be not a very good use of resources. So I'm okay with that as a flavor ability. Other then the elemental and aligned strike, the rest basically amounts you your houserule so I fail to see why the addition that UR suggest is considered a bad thing to you? Because it seems like even you do agree that EK as written has some rather sever issues that gets houseruled a lot.
The Spell Critical ability is clearly broken as written, but since it doesn't kick in until 10th level (minimum 16th level character for wizard EKs, 17th for sorcerers, 18 for bards), and most characters don't reach those levels, it doesn't fundamentally underpower the class.
If you have no use for the full BAB and d10 then the EK is clearly not the PrC you're looking for.
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Umm other then the channeling ability (which as it limits to only one attack AND you need to spend spells to do it will generally be not a very good use of resources. So I'm okay with that as a flavor ability. Other then the elemental and aligned strike, the rest basically amounts you your houserule so I fail to see why the addition that UR suggest is considered a bad thing to you? Because it seems like even you do agree that EK as written has some rather sever issues that gets houseruled a lot.The Spell Critical ability is clearly broken as written, but since it doesn't kick in until 10th level (minimum 16th level character for wizard EKs, 17th for sorcerers, 18 for bards), and most characters don't reach those levels, it doesn't fundamentally underpower the class.
If you have no use for the full BAB and d10 then the EK is clearly not the PrC you're looking for.
It's not just a matter of when the capstone kicks in...as you said yourself, half the stuff that UR is adding in ALREADY in many games as houserules...that you get as soon as you get the feat even, without the need for the EK PrC levels even. So why do you considering a houserule that incorporates those changes into the EK PrC as a bad thing? Or the idea that the EK should have had those as class abilities to begin with? The spell channel is hardly a good choice...it's more of a for fun of rolling dice ability as doing an extra 1d6 for spell level sacrificed for one attack is hardly a good trade. Hell even if you too the old arcane stike's bonus to hit...still not a very good trade in resources. Not so sold on the elemental strike or aligned strike though as I said.
As for the EK getting full BAB...that only makes a difference when you can effectively make use of that BAB...which for melee doesn't happen with needing 5 levels of wizard. And by high levels, you may as well get mostly wizard anyways so you end up with a mostly wizard build. The ONLY way to make use of the EK's full BAB is be an archer and mix in arcane archer. It's a bloody filler class without something more then BAB that the entry req prevents you from using...and losing 1 CL that already hurts the caster heavy entry req even more. It is AWEFUL in design...mainly because like you, people think that BAB and CL is all that you need. It's all you need if you wanna make a filler class...but as a stand along PrC, it's crap. Works wonders for making any kind of archery based fighter mage though. And if we get the melee version of the AA in AGP, then any kind of fighter mage can be made.
To come back to the original topic and the question from the OP:
We actually use similar abilities already under the name of 'eldritch power' or something that allow you to customize things a little bit and not get useless class features.
How bad would it be to allow spell strike on any weapon attack once per round instead of as a standard action?
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It's not just a matter of when the capstone kicks in...as you said yourself, half the stuff that UR is adding in ALREADY in many games as houserules...that you get as soon as you get the feat even, without the need for the EK PrC levels even. So why do you considering a houserule that incorporates those changes into the EK PrC as a bad thing? Or the idea that the EK should have had those as class abilities to begin with? The spell channel is hardly a good choice...it's more of a for fun of rolling dice ability as doing an extra 1d6 for spell level sacrificed for one attack is hardly a good trade. Hell even if you too the old arcane stike's bonus to hit...still not a very good trade in resources. Not so sold on the elemental strike or aligned strike though as I said.
Fixing AAM and AAT should be done in those feats, not in a PrC.
I still think simply adding additional abilities such as aligned strike and elemental strike is gilding the lily. Critical Spell aside, the PrC is fine for the uses for which it is intended -- a warrior arcanist. However, as I originally stated, they would make fine feats with the right prerequiste lists.
As for the EK getting full BAB...that only makes a difference when you can effectively make use of that BAB...which for melee doesn't happen with needing 5 levels of wizard. And by high levels, you may as well get mostly wizard anyways so you end up with a mostly wizard build. The ONLY way to make use of the...
I completely disagree with the premise of this argument -- that an EK can't melee effectively because he has 5 levels of wizard added in. Those first three spell levels contain some of the best self-buff spells to more than make up for the loss of +3 BAB compared to a pure martialist. Just off the top of my head: mage armor (if you don't want to go the AAT path), shield, true strike, enlarge person (increases damage & CMB nicely), invisibility, blur, mirror image, the whole set of attribute buffs eg bull's strength, haste...
The main challenges here are the saving throws (which UR did not address) and the weakness of Critical Strike, which is really a problem with the arcane armor feats.
So, I say again, the EK is fine as it stands.
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Okay as for buff spells...how many rounds do you plan on buffing yourself before going into combat? And because of the no swift action, you can´t even use quicken spells at higher levels to buff up faster. The reason the psy warrior was considered a success in this department is they could throw up two buffs per round...which the EK as is can not do at all.
As for the elemental and aligned strikes...yeah they maybe a bit much...and the aligned strike isn´t even a good thematic fit really. But the ability to channel a spell for extra damage in ONE attack at the cost of a full attack isn´t even remotely a good option in most cases...but it is fun and thematically appropriate.
Quite frankly you need MORE then what UR said to make an effective fighter/mage. You need to be able to quicken at least a few of the vital buff at lower levels.
delabarre, let it go man. Until the EK is straight up better then a fighter or a wizard some folks will never be happy.
delabarre, let it go man. Until the EK is straight up better then a fighter or a wizard some folks will never be happy.Yeah, I pretty much let it go four days ago. ;-)
Ah didn't notice the date, sorry about that
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delabarre, let it go man. Until the EK is straight up better then a fighter or a wizard some folks will never be happy.
How is an option to do less damage then spells normally do by channeling it better then the wizard? Or being able to buff up to be EQUAL to a fighter at the cost of spells that doesn´t take the whole fight better then the fighter? You see I actually PLAY this class...quite extensively. And it sucks. The best use I got out of it was using it as a filler after I got what I wanted from the arcane archer.
delabarre, let it go man. Until the EK is straight up better then a fighter or a wizard some folks will never be happy.How is an option to do less damage then spells normally do by channeling it better then the wizard? Or being able to buff up to be EQUAL to a fighter at the cost of spells that doesn´t take the whole fight better then the fighter? You see I actually PLAY this class...quite extensively. And it sucks. The best use I got out of it was using it as a filler after I got what I wanted from the arcane archer.
I don't think it sucks, it is just a bit boring maybe, I disagree more with arcane armor training as a feat, I think 10% reduction on arcane spellfailure would have been fine the swift action is overkill, than that I disagree (much) with the PrC itself.
I'd rather have seen something like the arcane archer, some fancy abilities but basically a fighter with nowhere near full caster levels.
The EK as described could use some houserules to make it accesible at level 6 wether you play a sorcerer or wizard.
+3 BAB
2nd level spells
proficient with martial weapons
Maybe add combat casting as a feat requirement.
I dont feel like arcane strike has to be changed. Spell Critical should be either a free action usable once per round, or an immediate action, the class is a natural fit for arcane strike it shouldn't interfere with the feat, I am not too fond of using the critical mechanic for this either.. maybe it could use a rewrite of the class' capstone ability.
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My own suggestion (poking my head in for a short bit) is first convince the DM to allow official 3.5 material (specifically complete series) and acquire the Complete Mage for the following prestige class:
The Abjurant Champion.
I don't feel that I should post the entire prestige class up here but I will give a hint at what it does:
Once per round quickened abjuration spells up to 3rd level spells (a list of which includes: Shield, Protection from Evil and Magic Circle of Protection from Evil, Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, and Dispel Magic) after all five levels of the class (only limited in tims per day by spells memorized or spell slots per day).
A bonus to any Armor or shield bonus provided by an Abjuration spell equal to your class level (so after the entire thing, shield would provide a +9 shield bonus to AC (secondary note: the actual class mentions mage armor but in errata, WoTC went "oops our bad, Mage Armor is conjuration"... that's not to say a DM couldn't possibly be convinced to change Mage armor to Abjuration/Conjuration)).
The class makes it so all abjuration spells are automatically extended without an increase in spell slot and with out any spell level restriction.
The class also has the ability to sacrifice spells slots for some insight bonuses to stuffs like ac and saving throws.
On a Final note the class has full BAB, full spell progression, and a d10 for its five levels. It also makes it so your caster level is equal to your BAB if it would be higher then your normal caster level.
This prestige class works very well with Eldritch Knight. I have a build of 4 Fighter/2 Wizard (Abjuration Specialist)/5 Abj Champion/9 Eldritch Knight that has a 19 base attack bonus and a 20 caster level (feats or traits included), capable of casting 8th level spells and has all the class features of Abjurant Champion.
Other suggestions of material: Complete Warrior has a feat called arcane strike which allows a user to sacrifice a spell slot or memorized to gain a bonus equal to the level of the spell given up to attack rolls with a single weapon, or to attack rolls with your natural weapons or unarmed strike plus d4 of damage per level of the spell given up. This ability is activated as a free action (I don't think they have made errata saying it should be a swift action). Also Complete Arcane has the feat extra spell which allows a user to learn a spell from another class. This means the abjurant champion could learn cleric abjuration spells such as shield of faith or shield other and then get all its nifty effects associated with those spells.
Anyway... I agree that eldritch knight kinda lacks flavor but overall I think it is a powerful enough class barring its capstone. Full Base Attack bonus plus 9 levels of caster level makes it so they can cast 7th level spells and mix it up with a bit of hack-o-slasho. Focus on self buffing spells and make some scrolls for other utility or attack spells if you be a wizard and this allows you to be a character with many solutions and options available to you. The strength of eldritch knight is in the many varied ways that can be entered into that class (fighter/wizard, Paladin/Sorcerer (plus this allows you to pick up weapon spec and greater weapon focus using the eldritch knight), Barbarian/Sorcerer if your so inclined (not the greatest combination but ah well)). The most important thing really for the eldritch knight is spell selection.
How about an eltrich knight that is a core class?
BAB=0-15 like a bard, d8 HD, Good fort, Wizard skills, simple weapons plus one martial weapon for prof. Light armor and shield proficiency.
Bonus Feats every even level like a fighter but not at 1st level. No other figher abilities
Spells per day as an Adept (npc class)using wizard spell list, prepares spells as a wizard, and specializes like a wizard (including specialist abilities). Arcane bond, but must be the martial weapon they are proficient with, no familiars or other items.
Must take 3 instead of 2 schools they are handicapped with.
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How about an eltrich knight that is a core class?
BAB=0-15 like a bard, d8 HD, Good fort, Wizard skills, simple weapons plus one martial weapon for prof. Light armor and shield proficiency.
Bonus Feats every even level like a fighter but not at 1st level. No other figher abilities
Spells per day as an Adept (npc class)using wizard spell list, prepares spells as a wizard, and specializes like a wizard (including specialist abilities). Arcane bond, but must be the martial weapon they are proficient with, no familiars or other items.
Must take 3 instead of 2 schools they are handicapped with.
Not bad...maybe give it +1 to hit every 4 level in exchange for some of the feats. You are gonna still be pretty MAD after all so your to hit is gonna suffer, even with spells to boost it up.
delabarre, let it go man. Until the EK is straight up better then a fighter or a wizard some folks will never be happy.
You know that's not true, so stop trolling.
Got to say I haven't had a problem with using the eldritch knight effectively to date. Mechanically speaking it is one of the more powerful prestige classes available.