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I just have a quick question.
What would happen if a wizard cast a fire ball at a 5th level goblin rogue, and 8 normal goblins ( without any PC class levels). Lets also assume that they are nicely bunched together for the fireball so he can get everyone in one burst. Lets assume normal die rolls. I would assume , and then he follows up with a Major Image spell, of a fire ball. What happens then?
Lets assume the wizard is human, 5th level, a generalist, with 16 intelegence, and a bonus spell from high intellegence. Lets also assume spell focus illusion, greater spell focus illusion, and spell focus evocation, and greater spell focus illusion for feats spent.
I have a pretty good idea what the fireball would do,
I do not know what the Major image spell would do. What would the illusion of a fireball do?
Thanks.
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They get a little warm and then look at each other in confusion as it got very bright for the briefest of moments. The rogue might have some idea of what just happened and might have dived for cover but no one would be hurt.
A fireball is an instantaneous effect after all. It's all >woosh< and then gone.
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R A Boettcher, Morgan, thank you for taking time to respond to my hypothetical question.
So from what I understand, a major image spell, the 3rd level illusion spell, is best used for indirect things, like a wall of fire, a passageway collapse, to cover a pit trap, or to creat the illusion of an lion roaring an elephant charging, something to startle your opponent.
It cant be used to “fake “ damage. I remember when illusions, if you failed your save vs spells, would cause damage because you believed you were being burned etc, and then would collapse into unconsciousness.
I had thought of representing this by having the illusion do 5d6 points of subdual damage if the goblins failed a will save.
I guess I need to look up figments. Thank you.
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What would happen if a wizard cast a fire ball at a 5th level goblin rogue, and 8 normal goblins ( without any PC class levels). Lets also assume that they are nicely bunched together for the fireball so he can get everyone in one burst. Lets assume normal die rolls. I would assume , and then he follows up with a Major Image spell, of a fire ball. What happens then?
They get a little warm and then look at each other in confusion as it got very bright for the briefest of moments. The rogue might have some idea of what just happened and might have dived for cover but no one would be hurt.
Morgen is perfectly accurate mechanically, but I disagree with some of this, from a flavor perspective, kinda.
I think the Rogue would be the one the least confused, but most deceived by the effect. In the rogue's mind, he wouldn't know if the fireball was fake, or if he was just able to evade the effects, like he commonly does.
He might get suspicious if he sees the normal goblins were unaffected, but since they all likely died from the first fireball (whether they saved or not), I doubt they would likely be any indication of what really happened the second time. :-P
Looping this back to mechanical benefit, a 5th level Wizard could theoretically try to scare off (I specifically chose to avoid the word "intimidate") a rogue by casting an illusion of a meteor swarm or something. At least in my games he could.
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Well the most important thing you have to remember about illusions like this is your audience has to have some vague idea of what the illusion is supposed to be if you want them to be tricked by it.
You'd be better off with a slowly approaching wall of flames or lava then instantaneous spells like fireball or meteor swarm.
It cant be used to “fake “ damage. I remember when illusions, if you failed your save vs spells, would cause damage because you believed you were being burned etc, and then would collapse into unconsciousness.
How did that work, exactly? I fake, say, meteor swarm, and people take tons of damage? What about wail of the banshee?
I don't think that illusions should work like that. There's the shadow magic thing (like shadow evocation) to do that sort of thing (and offer an explanation why you are actually damaged), but other than that, no "suggestive effects".
Where would it end? Fake healing/curing? Fake buffing?
They really should put something in there somewhere about illusionary spells and damage -- it's not like this is a new concept or something, and I'm constantly surprised by how it never seems to get any official coverage.
If the enemies failed their save vs the illusion, they'd believe they'd been hit with a fireball but somehow had escaped damage. If they make the save, they'd believe that they'd been hit with an illusion.
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Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I realize he he, the Illusion school of arcane magic is the magic of misdirection and and subtlety rather then direct brute force.
I was also wondering, with a simple detect magic, one can percieve that the magic is of the illusion school, and if a spell craft roll is made, the spell is identified.
Hmm i wonder, if say in casting said major illusion spell of say a wall of fire, if part of the illusion could be the somantic gestures of casting an evocation wall of fire?
a simple spell craft spell could undo the whole illusion, not to mention the cantrip detect magic.
What about the True seeing spell? I wander if there is a way to get around some of these means of magic detection?
Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I realize he he, the Illusion school of arcane magic is the magic of misdirection and and subtlety rather then direct brute force.
I was also wondering, with a simple detect magic, one can percieve that the magic is of the illusion school, and if a spell craft roll is made, the spell is identified.
Hmm i wonder, if say in casting said major illusion spell of say a wall of fire, if part of the illusion could be the somantic gestures of casting an evocation wall of fire?
a simple spell craft spell could undo the whole illusion, not to mention the cantrip detect magic.
What about the True seeing spell? I wander if there is a way to get around some of these means of magic detection?
Spellcraft can tell you the actual spell, and detect magic can tell you the school.
However, remember that illusions make you believe something even when it's not there.... so if you see a wizard casting a silent image and see a fireball, you don't automatically disbelieve it. You actually wonder what trick this wizard has up his sleeve that lets him cast a evocation while pretending to cast an illusion. Maybe he used a Quickened, Stilled, Silenced and Eschew Material Componented a fireball and cast a silent image too that round. Maybe he's an illusion of a wizard who is a Pit Fiend casting fireball as a spell-like and you mistook his handwaving for a silent image.
Remember, you don't even get a save until you interact with an illusion. Simply seeing it is not enough, so if someone puts an illusion of a wall of fire, someone has to actually jump in and risk burning before they get a save to notice it's an illusion. They might even fail a save and wonder why this wall of fire is not burning them, completely not realizing it is an illusion. Only once someone has made a save and explained it to other people can those other people start getting auto-saves.
I mean, this is a world where people can cast spells with no verbal or somatic components with either metamagic or as spell-likes (thus rendering Spellcraft useless), AND where spells exist to fool divinations into believing one kind of magic is another (like misdirection). Maybe your character doesn't believe he made his Spellcraft check and he thinks he misidentified the spell, or that detect magic is being fooled by some other spell.
Heck, if you see a completely silent orc running after you he might have boots of elvenkind, be an ethereal orc, a silenced orc, or any number of things. Only one of those choices is "illusion."
Also remember that detect magic takes several rounds to get the school reading. Most people have interacted and passed or failed their check by the time a detect magic tells you there is an Illusion effect.
True seeing a trump for illusions, but remember that it has a range of 120' and in your field of vision. This means you can still be fooled by illusions, just not the ones in your field of vision and close. Also, it has a short duration, so even knowing that you should cast it is quite hard. Usually by the time you know you need it, you've already made a save.
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I was also wondering, with a simple detect magic, one can percieve that the magic is of the illusion school, and if a spell craft roll is made, the spell is identified.
Hmm i wonder, if say in casting said major illusion spell of say a wall of fire, if part of the illusion could be the somantic gestures of casting an evocation wall of fire?
I believe, the RAW say that a Spellcraft check of someone watching you cast would allow them to know that you are casting an illusion, and thus modify their save (if applicable) accordingly.
However, in my games, I have them behave exactly how you mention, part of the illusion is that the somatic and verbal components are either generic enough to be confused for, or part of the spell allows them to mimic those of, the spell the illusion is mimicking.
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Arcane Sight would be more in line with the whole finding illusion school magic. That should certainly warrant the old +4 bonus for being suspicious for the illusion's saving throw but wouldn't automatically negate the need for a save. The Detect Magic/Arcane Eye tricks can also be easily defeated with the application of the spell Magic Aura so it isn't impossible that magic auras can be wrong.
There are no absolutes when it comes to what spell casters are capable of when you can research new spells. :)
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Thank you. I am just interested in exploring some of the other schools of magic. Evocation being the simplest and most frequently employed form of arcane magic.
I suppose Divination and Illusing might be to excelently paired schools.
Divination might be another underrated school. Being forwarned for a wizard means that he is forarmed.
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Well it look like the Sage is going to take a look at writing up an article on Illusions for Kobold Quarterly, yay! :)
Here is what Skip Williams:
"That sounds like a great idea for the column (and it pairs nicely with a question I already have in the hopper about divinations spells). In the meantime, it's imortant to remeber that of all the illusion spells, only thew shadow spells can have any real effects. Figment spells can't deal a lick of damage. Phantasms are purely mental, and they might have real effects, but only purely mental ones."
-1000 post for me, yay!