| Naponatom |
Where can I find a decent book (or thread, or post, or article) about d20 group tactics?
I am in a group of eight character but with only one Fighter (one fighter, two bards, two sorcerers, a rogue, an archer ranger and a druid) so I need to create group tactics to make us survive the typical encounter. Our GM doesn't allow us to use other d20 books except the core, so I just need a tactic that don´t use rules to make it work.
Any suggestion?
psionichamster
|
No specific threads that I'm aware of, but with that group:
Close to melee under stealth, with 1 bard, the Druid, the rogue, and the fighter ready to engage directly.
Sorcerer 1 & 2 stand overwatch, casting as needed and complementing one another's spells (1 has fireball, 2 has haste, for example )
Bard 2 stays with bow ranger and plinks away with his shortbow while inspiring and casting.
If the ranged team gets in trouble, sorcerers move the melee guys around, get ranged guys out, or drop those threats ASAP.
This hinges on the mobility of those sorcerers and good perception / stealth on most PC part
| HalfOrcHeavyMetal |
No specific threads that I'm aware of, but with that group:
Close to melee under stealth, with 1 bard, the Druid, the rogue, and the fighter ready to engage directly.
Sorcerer 1 & 2 stand overwatch, casting as needed and complementing one another's spells (1 has fireball, 2 has haste, for example )
Bard 2 stays with bow ranger and plinks away with his shortbow while inspiring and casting.
If the ranged team gets in trouble, sorcerers move the melee guys around, get ranged guys out, or drop those threats ASAP.
This hinges on the mobility of those sorcerers and good perception / stealth on most PC part
I'd go a little bit further in that the Fighter demand buffage, since he'll literally be the anvil that the rest of the party (the hammer) uses. Bark-skin, Bear, Bull and Cat buffs if they will help, spells like Stoneskin and flanking help from summoned monsters. Elemental Resistance buffs if the Sorcerers are fireball-happy, so on and so forth.
Druid and 2 Bards can handle healing duties fairly well, and the archer ranger and 2 sorcerers can bring some fairly effective long-range pain, but depending upon if the Ranger and Druid have pets, it might pay for at least one of those pets to hang back and provide some muscle in case the enemy either gets past you or they get reinforcements from that direction.
More PCs = More Targets. This can help spread out the damage, but on the other side of the coin, if they all bunch up together it can lead to some real problems if one AoE Spell or Effect goes off on your squishy friends. PCs must be aware of not only their position in regards to the enemy, but their position in regards to their allies as well. A formation must be able to be broken apart and reformed into a new configuration in a heartbeat if the enemy can get past the Anvil (Fighter and the other melee-heavy characters) and can get into the formation and start laying about with attacks on the low-AC targets.
Sorcerers must, if they get into close-quarters combat, run towards the Ranger, the Druid or the Fighter, targets that have the higher hit-points and can spend a round or two peeling the enemy off them. Don't forget they are very fragile, despite having great capacity for carnage, so investing in magical items that allow them to quickly 'port around the battlefield to get range again can be vital, but again they must keep their positioning in mind when doing so. Warping 80 feet away from the Blackguard keen on denting your skull is one thing, but if your new position puts most of the party between your maximised lightning bolt and the blackguard, you've effectively taken yourself out of the battle until you can get a clear shot again.
Bards, given the party's build so far, should focus on being melee Skirmishers and buffing fiends, using different Bardic Music abilities to grant the party increased and if they can swing it, Disable Device since your party seems to lack a dedicated trap-springer. One Bard should be primarily concerned with this matter, and the other Bard take 10 ranks in Disable Device to help with the Aid Another with certain traps, although Magic Traps will be out of reach if one of them doesn't multiclass into Rogue. Also, I'm assuming the Bards will be the Party's Face(s)? Keeping their Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy and Sense Motive skills high will enable them to talk the party past certain points in the campaign, and failing that, if they also keep their Stealth abilities relatively high, they can carry the party in portable holes with a bottle of Air past most sentries, supplementing their stealth scores with Invisibility, Silence and eventually Gaseous Form and Zone of Silence, making them potentially better scouts than the Ranger.
Druid must be aware that the high-end healing spells will inevitably come from him. Bards have good abilities in this regard but lack the sheer healing power that a Cleric could bring, and while the Druid isn't as good a healer as the Cleric, since he's the primary Divine Caster that means the Druid should be preparing 'the big guns' healing spells and leaving the Cure spells to the Bards. Wild-Shaping will allow the Druid to, in a pinch, step up if the Fighter is heavily injured, turn into something massive like a Dire Bear or a Huge-size Python and slap the enemy around while the fighter can retreat, knowing that any attempts to follow will be met with a wagon-sized paw to the face by the Druid Ally. Bards can spend two or maybe three rounds punching Cure spells into the Fighter and the Druid can then either fall back or continue to help the Fighter in the thick of melee. Natural Spell actually makes the Druid even stronger in Wildshape, as the Druid gains the benefits of increased physical scores while still retaining access to his spells, thereby keeping his damage and healing up even as his combat abilities goes through the roof.
Ranger must grab feats such as Shot on the Run, and possibly take a Animal Companion such as a Horse or otherwise suited for riding for his size. Sheer mobility will allow the Ranger to run around the battlefield, attacking as he goes with Full Attacks and effectively running in to 30 feet of the enemy and using Point Blank Shot and Manyshot feats, then running 30 feet away, forcing the enemy to either make a charge attack to catch up or stand there and weather the storm of arrows.
psionichamster
|
Ranger must grab feats such as Shot on the Run, and possibly take a Animal Companion such as a Horse or otherwise suited for riding for his size. Sheer mobility will allow the Ranger to run around the battlefield, attacking as he goes with Full Attacks and effectively running in to 30 feet of the enemy and using Point Blank Shot and Manyshot feats, then running 30 feet away, forcing the enemy to either make a charge attack to catch up or stand there and weather the storm of arrows
In addition to this, consider the following "pairings"
Fighter + Rogue. Flank and kill. Repeat as necessary. With good communication and an AC-focused Rogue, this is very very doable, and very effective. We had a Barbarian & Rogue pairing all through Second Darkness, and they rocked face.
Sorcerer 1 & Ranger. Mobile artillery platform. Ranger perforates things with arrows, Sorc1 with Magic Missiles and the like. It helps if the Sorc is focused on direct damage spells, but not necessary.
Sorcerer 2 & Bard 1. Either part 2 of the Artillery Platform, or helping out the Melee Group. This needs the most mobility, IMO, and either can be replaced by the Druid if his healing is more needed at the close-in beatdown.
Druid & Bard. Healing, Triage, and Buffs. These guys toss off the long-term buffs early on, then float around to best aid whoever needs it. Optimally, the Bards will trade off on singing, so you should have Inspire Courage every round of every fight of every day. Druid as horse or fast flying bird makes for a VERY concealable healer, and can still ferry around (or ride on) the Bard if need be.
You lack some melee threat, so summons and the like are very good choices (assuming the summoner is fast with his actions...), as are AoE type effects on the spellcasters. Sure, Fireball may be fun to cast, but another, more permanent resolution may be needed. Entangle + Ranged combat will get this party through a lot of the low level stuff, assuming it's at least partially outdoors.
You do lack some high-strength healing, but the Druid can sub in, and wands/scrolls are perfectly usable by the Bards (and likely Sorcerers). Watch out for Negative Levels, as Druids find that a bit tricky to deal with.
I concur with the above, more specific info will allow for more detailed suggestions.
| Naponatom |
My master is a McLaine adept, so the "sensation of achievement is directly proportional to the suffering", and I hope our achievement is a one-tenth close to the unending suffering we been in this game. Althrought is fun (and is so much FUN), it´s kinda frustrating.
So my group is cut-off from civilization, no magic item, no shop to improve our gear, hunted down by the law and still trying to make home.
* Bard (lvl 4) Hold Person, Alter self, cure light, charm. Rapier, leather armor
* Bard (lvl 1) bardic music
* Sorcerer (lvl 1) Magic Missile, Sleep
* Sorcerer (lvl 3) Mage Armor, Shield, True Strike
* Druid (lvl 4) Animal companion - ape, hide armor, short spear
* Ranger (lvl 4)home-made long bow, animal companion Owl, chain shirt
* Rogue (lvl 2) short sword, leather armor
* Fighter (lvl 6) mw chain shirt, greatsword (or longsword & light mace)
| HalfOrcHeavyMetal |
* Bard (lvl 4) Hold Person, Alter self, cure light, charm. Rapier, leather armor
* Bard (lvl 1) bardic music
* Sorcerer (lvl 1) Magic Missile, Sleep
* Sorcerer (lvl 3) Mage Armor, Shield, True Strike
* Druid (lvl 4) Animal companion - ape, hide armor, short spear
* Ranger (lvl 4)home-made long bow, animal companion Owl, chain shirt
* Rogue (lvl 2) short sword, leather armor
* Fighter (lvl 6) mw chain shirt, greatsword (or longsword & light mace)
Ow. And emphasis on the 'Ow'. Okay, so the Fighter is the highest level, players have a decided lack of heavy armor on their side, levels are all over the place but mostly low. Druid can spread some love to AC for the Fighter via barkskin, I'd recommend the Sorcerer with Mage Armor keep aside a few casting for both sorcerers and the lower level Bard.
If the Ranger can swing it, can he train his Owl to stand guard while the players sleep, so whoever get the 'graveyard shift' of the watch has some help with their Perception checks?
In terms of gear and weaponry .... McGuyver time. Time for the Druid and Ranger to strut their stuff with Survival skill, finding items that the canny players can turn into useful items. Wasp-Hive? Seal it in a sack and tie it shut REALLY QUICK. When about to be attacked, shake the sack viciously and fling, then RLF. Vines can be woven into nets to cover pit-traps, Ranger and Druid can use Wild Empathy to get the native animals/plant creatures on their sides, and Bards can focus on using counter-song to deal with enemy spellcasters, although in the case of the level 1 Bard, I'd stick to ranged attacks. Pester the enemy, get them to move into flanking range of the Fighter and Summoned Monsters if possible.
Bone is a poor substitute for metal, but in a pinch can be turned into a suitable weapon. Equip the Rogue and Bard with bone-tipped short-spears and they can spend a few rounds throwing from stealth or elevated positions, hopefully keep the enemy on their toes and off-balance long enough for anybody to land a telling blow.
May I suggest the Fighter hand over his mace to the 1st level Bard and focus exclusively on his Greatsword for the time being? Helps to arm a companion and increases their survivability in a fight somewhat, even if the 1st level Bard does nothing but fight defensively, doing so with a metal weapon to help block incoming blows has got to be more effective than trying to do so with your bare hands.
Again, this is a point in time where the 'out doors' classes such as the Ranger and Druid can shine as they can gather a variety of materials from the natural world and the other classes can help craft them into traps and weaponry.
Take cues from movies and historical conflicts. A certain Robin Hood film had the Merry Men hiding from their horse-mounted pursuers by sliding under a sheet covered with dirt and leaves, knocking over a stick that was holding the sheet up in the process and blending in almost perfectly with the ground-cover of the forest floor. In such situations, players must not fight harder, but fight smarter.
Outnumbered? Use those numbers to your advantage, pull the enemy into situations where they think they're just fighting the Ranger and the Fighter, but on a command the two take a double move action to run back 10 feet and then throw themselves backwards before the other players pop up from behind boulders and fling those bone-tipped spears at the enemy. The Players have effectively caught the Enemies flat-footed, and the Rogue will truly shine here. The damage and attack rolls are down, but the shock alone should help the party carry through, as it is very demoralizing to realise that the odds are quite even after you've spent the past few rounds convinced you're going in for the easy kill. Fighter and Ranger then have a chance to get back onto their feet and continue the fight while the enemy either retreats or makes the mistakes of coming in after the players, and sets off the traps the two highest-AC characters jumped over when they threw themselves backwards. Ye Olde Spike to the Groin always takes the fight out of most enemies.
4th level Bard must save his Hold Person spell for tough enemies that aren't likely to beat the saving throw, and leave them for the Rogue to sneak up on and Sneak Attack to kingdom come once they get the chance. And he can use Alter Self to himself to sneak into enemy camps, make off with valuable weapons and armor or drop poisons or other nasties into the food and water supplies or even just a bag of vipers the Druid and Ranger captured and stuffed into a sturdy leather sack into the enemy commander's bedroll.
I'll try and think up some more tactics, but given the PCs are, as you stated, far from society and in conflict with the local law, their only real options are to 'Do the McGuyver' and perhaps even ally with a group of Bandits for weapons and supplies, at least until they gain enough levels to start throwing some heavy Crafting skills into new gear and perhaps training up some mounts such as Giant Eagles (assuming PCs are good-aligned) or mounts capable of flying the PCs out of the area, preferably behind their enemies so they can gain new weaponry and hopefully some allies in their fight.
psionichamster
|
My master is a McLaine adept, so the "sensation of achievement is directly proportional to the suffering", and I hope our achievement is a one-tenth close to the unending suffering we been in this game. Althrought is fun (and is so much FUN), it´s kinda frustrating.
So my group is cut-off from civilization, no magic item, no shop to improve our gear, hunted down by the law and still trying to make home.
* Bard (lvl 4) Hold Person, Alter self, cure light, charm. Rapier, leather armor
* Bard (lvl 1) bardic music
* Sorcerer (lvl 1) Magic Missile, Sleep
* Sorcerer (lvl 3) Mage Armor, Shield, True Strike
* Druid (lvl 4) Animal companion - ape, hide armor, short spear
* Ranger (lvl 4)home-made long bow, animal companion Owl, chain shirt
* Rogue (lvl 2) short sword, leather armor
* Fighter (lvl 6) mw chain shirt, greatsword (or longsword & light mace)
oof...this is tough.
Firstly, I would recommend the lvl 1's and 2's work on getting XP fast. Not sure exactly how you can achieve that, with the given setup, but having a Fighter 6 and a Sorcerer 1 in the party is pretty much sure death for both, in a real crisis situation.
With noone to buy stuff from, Druid & Bard 4 should likely plan on taking Item Crafting feats, to offset your frailties. If that's not possible, consider trying to ally with a nearby tribe (human, dwarf, kobold, goblin, what have you) for some extra muscle / gear availability.
Stealth and ambushes will be your most successful strategies, which is good, since almost everyone is low enough level to start investing in that tactic now. Fighter should be maxing out Perception & Stealth, even if that means no other good skills for him. If he's human, or has a decent Int, that can change, of course.
If the Ape and Owl blend into the nearby animals (thinking northern africa light jungle for that to happen, or metropolitan area with lots of exotic pets/menageries) they can be excellent scouts. Send the Druid with them (wildshaped into a nondescript animal, of course) and get the lay of the land whenever possible.
For overland travel, your most defensible travelling position will have Ranger up front, preferably mounted if possible, the 4 spellcasters in the center, Fighter taking up the rear (preferably with SOME kind of ranged weapon, even if just javelins), and the Druid / Rogue working as outlying stealthy skirmishers / scouts. Bird & Ape take actual "point" and should be the first to contact any enemies, preferably.
This way, you have a good defensive posture to help the most exposed members of your party, while maximizing your offensive output and gaining as much battlefield intelligence as you can. Speak with Animals will be your most used spell for that Druid (and ranger eventually), possibly with the exception of Entangle.
You mention running from the law...
If you don't mind taking out the chasers (and are capable of doing so), you stand a pretty good chance of acquiring MUCH better weapons / armor, and most importantly, mounts.
A good ambush for that could be Druid & Ranger tending to a "wounded animal" (disguised spellcasters under a tarp/animal skin) out in the open. Play it like they chose to stay and help (or skin, or what have you) that beast and just happened to not notice their pursuers coming up.
When the lawmen move in to take them, Sleep any mounts, and go absolutely ape-crap on offense. Sorcerer with True Strike gets the biggest, nastiest piece of hardware you can muster, and lets loose. Fighter and Rogue move in (from stealth) to engage and cut off retreat. With luck, you may be able to put down their leader right off the cuff (Sneak Attack + True Strike Large Rock on Head + Fighter whacking you) and break the morale of the group. This is a dangerous plan, but with your desperate situation, it's likely to be worth it. After all, if you all die / get captured, you're not really that worse off than right now.
Other tips: Really use the Druid and Ranger's outdoors abilities. Thorny barriers for your pursuers to go through, with obvious tracks leading in and nothing leading out, false trails elsewhere, good survival ability means you can eat on the hoof if need be.
Let the Bards handle any talking. Consider a double-cross "surrender" plan where the Bard approaches a Lawman group (preferably under disguise) and offers to sell the party out. On arrival, spring the ambush to take them out.
Your fighter is your most important resource right now, but don't neglect the middle-ground guys. A Cat's Grace or Bear's Endurance on the Rogue may prove more beneficial, if he can't hit or keeps getting dropped.
Finally, communicate amongst the party. Nothing will kill you all faster than not knowing what your buddy is doing or planning.
-t